Listen to the audio here or on The White Pube podcast on APPLESPOTIFY & GOOGLE


Download transcript here or read below.

We asked our audience for the weirdest things they witnessed in art school and, unfortunately, they delivered. Today's episode is Art School Horror Stories, discussing bodily fluids, animals, weird students and weird tutors.

Speakers: Gabrielle de la Puente and Zarina Muhammad

Jingle by Toynoiz

This is a special episode of the podcast SPONSORED BY MUBI :))) AYOOOOO. we are partnering with them to celebrate the release of The African Desperate and all of our readers and listeners can get 30 free days of MUBI to enjoy everything they have to offer. i have genuinely been subscribed to MUBI since I was in art school 6.. 7.. years ago. so this partnership moment is very fun for me

00:00:00:01 - 00:00:06:04 Gabrielle Apologize to MUBI. Look MUBI in the eyes and say I’m sorry for hurting you.

00:00:06:20 - 00:00:11:19 Zarina MUBI, I am so sorry for this. Please pay our invoice.

00:00:12:12 - 00:00:29:16 Gabrielle Get 30 days for free. The African Desperate is streaming exclusively on Mubi. Hello and welcome to the latest episode of The White Pube podcast. My name is Gabrielle de la Puente.

00:00:29:16 - 00:00:30:22 Zarina And I’m Zarina Muhammad.

00:00:31:08 - 00:00:35:21 Gabrielle And today’s episode is going to be horrific.

00:00:36:15 - 00:00:46:10 Zarina I’m really stressed, like I’ve purposely not had a look at the stuff that’s come in so that you can get my genuine reaction.

00:00:46:17 - 00:01:14:13 Gabrielle Yeah, I didn’t want to tell you because I wanted to see your genuine reaction. Today’s episode is about the weirdness of art school. We asked our audience to tell us some stories about, like, things that they witnessed, things that were said to them that, like, things they’re never going to forget. And this is like a question we can ask our audience about, like, the strange things that they saw and the strange things that happened to them.

00:01:14:17 - 00:01:39:09 Gabrielle Because art school is so fucking weird. Like, it’s just weird. It’s not the straightforward learning experience that you might expect if you were doing an English literature course where you, like, go to the library and read a book and highlight something and then write an essay about it and - it’s just not what happens - like something strange has to happen in the studio setting because the outcome is also strange.

00:01:39:20 - 00:02:07:14 Gabrielle So we’re doing today’s episode about art school because we know it’s something that our audience is going to find amusing, but also just like horrifying as well. It’s strangely traumatic. I’ve felt so overwhelmed reading the answers that have come in like it’s been so intense. I’ve split the categories up into animals, bodily fluids.

00:02:07:15 - 00:02:10:17 Speaker 3 No, no, no, no, no, no, no.

00:02:11:07 - 00:02:19:21 Gabrielle Weird tutors and then weird students, like that’s sort of it. It just falls into those four categories, like kind of comfortably.

00:02:20:03 - 00:02:21:00 Zarina But is it like a Venn.

00:02:21:00 - 00:02:26:07 Speaker 3 Diagram where there’s like weird students, bodily fluids? Some of it is.

00:02:27:11 - 00:02:44:11 Gabrielle Some of them are of a Venn diagram and we’ll get to them. But just before we start, today’s episode is sponsored by Mubi which - guys - we fucking did it, we fucking found a little tiny sponsor, a big sponsor, someone that we absolutely love.

00:02:45:15 - 00:03:00:15 Zarina Everyone just take a minute to like. Really? This is a team effort. I’d like to thank Gabrielle. I’d like to thank my mum. Just all of our supporters, really. Actually.

00:03:00:15 - 00:03:23:16 Gabrielle Thank you for. everyone who’s ever read The White Pube. Thank you for everyone who’s ever listened. We got to like, what is this, 102 episodes of the podcast? And this is like, our first legit cool, big name-recognisable sponsor for an episode. So I’m fucking buzzing and I don’t even feel cringe talking about having a sponsor for an episode because it’s so cool.

00:03:25:03 - 00:03:30:03 Zarina Can everyone just listen to this episode like a minimum of ten times.

00:03:30:03 - 00:03:31:05 Gabrielle Yeah, play it on repeat.

00:03:31:05 - 00:03:31:17 Speaker 3

00:03:32:01 - 00:03:44:20 Zarina Yeah. And you can just turn - right, don’t tell Mubi this - just turn the volume all the way down to zero. Leave it on while you’re asleep. Just on repeat. That’s fine. Run the numbers up. You’ve got to make us look

00:03:45:00 - 00:03:46:09 Speaker 3 Really fucking good to.

00:03:46:09 - 00:03:49:04 Zarina Mubi so we can be like, yeah, a million people listened to this.

00:03:50:06 - 00:04:08:11 Gabrielle And then they might sponsor more. Fingers crossed. So we’re working with Movie this week to promote the release of The African Desperate which is a new film out by Martine Syms, who you might know because you might have been to an exhibition by Martine Syms. I don’t know. I only ever knew her as an artist and now there are films.

00:04:08:21 - 00:04:38:13 Gabrielle And so the film is about art school, it’s about art students in a school in upstate New York. And it’s so intense and heady. It also feels like this episode of us discussing like people’s experiences of art school is like a bit of a debrief. Like the stories that came in seem strangely like familiar, even if it was a story from France or Manchester or America, like there’s something weird happening, it’s in the water at this point.

00:04:38:19 - 00:04:41:04 Gabrielle And so before we get into it

00:04:42:02 - 00:04:43:15 Speaker 3 The.

00:04:43:19 - 00:05:00:16 Gabrielle Film on Mubi, it’s streaming exclusively on Mubi and all of our listeners and readers and all the people that we like in the world can watch Mubi for 30 days for free. So just click the link in the description and enjoy.

00:05:00:16 - 00:05:04:02 Zarina Even if we personally hate you, please use the link.

00:05:04:11 - 00:05:05:16 Gabrielle Especially if we -

00:05:06:01 - 00:05:06:10 Speaker 3

00:05:06:24 - 00:05:09:07 Zarina You can also - I reviewed this Gabrielle!

00:05:09:22 - 00:05:22:12 Gabrielle I know, I know. I’m sorry. I’m like, I feel genuinely, as I said, overwhelmed. There are like files upon files on my desktop of people talking about doing things with chickens and dogs

00:05:22:13 - 00:05:22:17 Speaker 3 I.

00:05:23:18 - 00:05:25:21 Gabrielle I’m don’t know where I am.

00:05:26:03 - 00:05:26:23 Zarina You’re in orbit.

00:05:27:06 - 00:05:31:11 Gabrielle I’m in orbit. You need to just take over so I can like, breathe for a second.

00:05:32:07 - 00:05:51:09 Zarina I should also say, if you do watch the African Desperate and you want like a specific debrief about the film, then I reviewed it last Sunday because this will be out the Sunday after. So last Sunday. Go on the website, it’s still in the top banner. If not, then we will link this in the YouTube description or the Spotify description.

00:05:51:16 - 00:06:06:18 Zarina There’s a link to the review and it was a nice companion text in GDLP’s own words to the film. So watch then read the review, listen to this episode 100 times and then we’ll send you something in the post. Maybe if you tell us that you’ve done all three of those things.

00:06:07:09 - 00:06:07:24 Speaker 3 Yes.

00:06:08:14 - 00:06:11:22 Gabrielle Okay, let’s start. What category do you want to start with?

00:06:12:16 - 00:06:15:02 Speaker 3 Noooo. Animals. Animals.

00:06:16:14 - 00:06:35:02 Gabrielle Fair warning. There are animals involved in this. If that’s not your jam - I don’t think it’s anyone’s jam - it’s some people’s jam because obviously they did these things. But you’ve been warned. Number one. A guy made a spear and hunted pigeons on the streets of Amsterdam.

00:06:35:19 - 00:06:36:15 Speaker 3 HUNTED.

00:06:36:24 - 00:06:38:19 Zarina Is a very pointed choice.

00:06:38:19 - 00:06:39:08 Speaker 3 Of words.

00:06:40:10 - 00:06:43:17 Zarina On the streets - a spear. HUNTED. Next.

00:06:44:07 - 00:07:02:10 Gabrielle Next. At my first ever lecture in art college, the first day of first year, the head of my school gave us a lecture while holding a taxidermy dog’s head and running around holding it on various students heads, as well as pieces of furniture and also different places on himself.

00:07:03:01 - 00:07:06:06 Speaker 3 No. Does it get worse?

00:07:06:12 - 00:07:15:06 Gabrielle It immediately gets worse. A guy in first year went through a phase of using a chicken carcass instead of a brush.

00:07:16:07 - 00:07:28:02 Zarina No, that’s not sanitary. He’d have given everyone salmonella. Surely that’s not - the food hygiene standards.

00:07:28:02 - 00:07:44:01 Gabrielle Speaking of food hygiene standards, ‘someone wanted to paint using pig’s blood so they stored it in the shared fridges. Same day, food and safety inspection did their rounds in our department, and they closed our studio space for three weeks.’ Yeah.

00:07:44:23 - 00:07:48:13 Speaker 3

00:07:48:13 - 00:07:50:17 Zarina That’s quite funny. The other one’s, not so much, the other ones we do take seriously.

00:07:51:07 - 00:07:52:05 Gabrielle It’s so bad.

00:07:52:05 - 00:07:59:14 Zarina And then taxidermy dog’s head. And then imagine you’re in a lecture that’s weird-tutors-animals crossover.

00:07:59:24 - 00:08:00:10 Speaker 3 Yeah.

00:08:00:15 - 00:08:01:02 Zarina Continue.

00:08:02:23 - 00:08:05:16 Gabrielle And then two about a goldfish and then we’re just going to swiftly move on.

00:08:06:02 - 00:08:06:22 Zarina Urgh, okay.

00:08:08:07 - 00:08:34:05 Gabrielle ‘Was at a party once where my fellow art schooler ate a goldfish alive.’ ‘Rumors of someone setting a live goldfish in resin. And there was obviously upset at the cruelty of this but he like, quote, won against the repercussions by convincing the other white men who were deciding on disciplinary matters that his concept was just so good it had to be done.’

00:08:34:13 - 00:08:37:05 Zarina What was the concept? Animal cruelty.

00:08:37:05 - 00:08:43:22 Gabrielle It’s so bizarre. Like, I almost think it should just definitely be like some kind of law.

00:08:44:05 - 00:08:46:22 Speaker 3

00:08:46:22 - 00:08:47:10 Zarina I think that is illegal?

00:08:47:10 - 00:08:49:04 Speaker 3 I hope so.

00:08:49:14 - 00:08:56:00 Zarina Well, I mean, I don’t know - if you did that to like a cat or a dog, the police would be onto you because they’d be like, you’re a serial killer.

00:08:56:00 - 00:09:05:20 Gabrielle Yeah, just get better fucking ideas. Like, if you have to use animals as material, you probably shouldn’t be an artist.

00:09:05:20 - 00:09:14:23 Zarina If you have to commit murder on the streets of Amsterdam with a spear. Yeah. Even with pigeons, I don’t know for you.

00:09:15:05 - 00:09:19:03 Gabrielle Go and do law. Not law, actually, I don’t trust you to do law.

00:09:19:22 - 00:09:20:06 Speaker 3

00:09:20:06 - 00:09:24:15 Zarina D’you know what, just do the numbers. Like, I hated that. Why did we start with that one?

00:09:24:21 - 00:09:33:06 Gabrielle We shouldn’t have started with that. ‘Can we do bodily fluids?' As if that’s any better.

00:09:33:06 - 00:09:35:13 Zarina I’m assuming it’ll be funnier.

00:09:37:00 - 00:10:11:23 Gabrielle I feel like I should put another content warning on this. This stuff is just so gross and weird and, like, just baseless behavior. We will zoom through again and then we’ll get to the more - almost like, the better stuff about the teachers and students. Okay. ‘In my first week at art school, a guy in my class did a shit on a scanner and then put the images on cushions and the tutors loved it.’

00:10:11:23 - 00:10:12:10 Speaker 3

00:10:12:15 - 00:10:18:15 Gabrielle Do you know what I feel the need to say at this point is, like, I’m sorry to Martine Syms. I’m sorry to Mubi.

00:10:19:02 - 00:10:19:17 Speaker 3 Is going to come.

00:10:19:17 - 00:10:21:04 Zarina Up in the search engine results.

00:10:21:04 - 00:10:24:03 Speaker 3 when you google the film.

00:10:24:03 - 00:10:48:18 Gabrielle The thing is though like the film itself almost does make space for like the weird physical freedom that people make use of in art school. Like, there’s just no rules and everyone can make what they want and everyone can like do what they want. And that might involve their bodies or might involve someone else’s bodies. That’s almost in the film, even if it’s like not…

00:10:48:21 - 00:10:49:07 Gabrielle Yeah.

00:10:49:15 - 00:10:50:12 Zarina Yeah but why shit though, gab?

00:10:50:12 - 00:10:53:16 Speaker 3

00:10:53:18 - 00:10:54:15 Zarina This hasn’t got to be shit.

00:10:54:23 - 00:10:55:19 Speaker 3

00:10:56:10 - 00:10:58:11 Gabrielle Well, this one -

00:10:58:11 - 00:11:00:12 Speaker 3 And a scanner! How are you meant to use the scanner again?

00:11:00:12 - 00:11:02:03 Gabrielle I think this is the single worst one I read.

00:11:02:03 - 00:11:04:11 Zarina This upcoming one?

00:11:04:24 - 00:11:05:22 Gabrielle This, this one.

00:11:06:04 - 00:11:06:21 Zarina Okay.

00:11:07:06 - 00:11:29:10 Gabrielle Everyone. Brace yourself. At the opening of our Work in Progress show at the Royal College of Art, a performance student literally pulled shit out of their arse and dragged it across the floor and then smeared it on the surrounding walls. Fair to say the students who had work showing in the.

00:11:29:10 - 00:11:40:12 Speaker 3 Space for the rest of the week were not impressed.

00:11:41:01 - 00:11:43:20 Zarina What do you mean - what, pulled? Pulled is doing a lot of work in that sentence.

00:11:43:20 - 00:11:45:09 Gabrielle Very evocative isn’t it.

00:11:47:15 - 00:11:52:14 Zarina I’ve never pulled a shit out of myself. How, physically - what’s the physics?

00:11:53:11 - 00:11:57:06 Gabrielle I feel so ashamed.

00:11:57:06 - 00:11:57:21 Zarina Have you pulled a shit?

00:11:57:21 - 00:12:03:00 Speaker 3 No, no, no.

00:12:03:00 - 00:12:07:12 Gabrielle I mean, like, I feel ashamed that, like, these stories are connected to art school.

00:12:07:23 - 00:12:08:06 Speaker 3 Oh.

00:12:09:08 - 00:12:13:22 Gabrielle Yeah you should have let me finish that sentence. Someone’s going to clip that, and.

00:12:13:22 - 00:12:15:04 Zarina Then that’s clickbait.

00:12:15:15 - 00:12:16:13 Gabrielle I’m the shit girl.

00:12:17:04 - 00:12:18:21 Speaker 3 And this is the.

00:12:18:21 - 00:12:20:09 Zarina Clip that ends up on Instagram.

00:12:20:09 - 00:12:36:13 Gabrielle I’m like, let’s just quickly combat that. Tell me the best thing about art school. I want the dire opposite, diametric opposite of what we’ve just had. Quick redeem us. Redeem the entire industry.

00:12:36:13 - 00:12:38:05 Speaker 3 Gab! I can’t think! All I’m

00:12:38:05 - 00:12:44:19 Zarina Thinking about right now is physically how would you pull a shit out your arse? Do you just stick

00:12:45:09 - 00:12:45:17 Speaker 3 a —–

00:12:47:18 - 00:12:52:14 Gabrielle This is a podcast audio medium. Zarina’s there doingfinger motions on the screen

00:12:53:05 - 00:12:58:20 Zarina Do uou just simply insert your fingers like a claw machine.

00:12:59:24 - 00:13:07:23 Speaker 3 Fish around for something to grab onto?

00:13:07:23 - 00:13:08:19 Zarina It’s a little poo prize.

00:13:11:06 - 00:13:14:22 Speaker 3 A little poo prize.

00:13:15:14 - 00:13:17:01 Gabrielle Redeem us, please.

00:13:17:16 - 00:13:21:08 Speaker 3

00:13:21:08 - 00:13:29:22 Zarina What was good? We met each other. I don’t know. I really enjoyed the canteen lunches. They were nice.

00:13:29:22 - 00:13:34:10 Speaker 3 And do you remember all the

00:13:34:10 - 00:13:36:04 Zarina Library books we stole?

00:13:36:10 - 00:13:38:19 Speaker 3 Half of them are behind me.

00:13:40:02 - 00:13:46:02 Gabrielle Shush! Why don’t you maybe talk about what you wrote about in the review? The good changes that happened at art school?

00:13:46:11 - 00:14:01:09 Zarina I’m very stressed out by all of this. Okay. Right. So I think as a positive upsides of art school, it does – these weird things happen to you and they do change you, but it is for the better. I think sometimes because you are

00:14:01:09 - 00:14:01:16 Speaker 3 More.

00:14:02:04 - 00:14:08:04 Zarina It’s like you’re an expanded person. You’ve had the expansion pack, right? Yeah, maybe you get traumatised by

00:14:09:06 - 00:14:24:03 Speaker 3 One of your peers pulling a shit – Yeah I feel really guilty.

00:14:24:03 - 00:14:29:09 Gabrielle That this is our first podcast sponsorship. This our last podcast sponsorship as well. This is it. We reached the apex.

00:14:29:10 - 00:14:58:16 Speaker 3 We just introduced this by saying everybody on your best behavior. Yeah. And then you proceeded to tell them the most horrifying story I’ve ever heard in my life. It’s not my fault though!

00:14:59:18 - 00:15:04:04 Zarina They smeared it on the walls. Oh, God. Oh, great. Okay. Um, art school changes you, and maybe that’s.

00:15:05:07 - 00:15:07:02 Speaker 3 The key thing. You’re wise to the world.

00:15:07:02 - 00:15:14:15 Zarina When you’ve seen your classmate pull the shit out. Nothing’s going to surprise you. Your, you know, you’re worldly.

00:15:14:23 - 00:15:16:09 Gabrielle That’s a good story as well.

00:15:16:09 - 00:15:22:12 Zarina It’s a cracking story. I really want to have a chat with the person who saw that. And just tell be like, tell more.

00:15:22:22 - 00:15:26:10 Gabrielle While we’re in the trauma, let’s just carry on with the trauma and.

00:15:26:10 - 00:15:28:10 Speaker 3 let’s move onto bodily fluids.

00:15:28:10 - 00:15:28:23 Zarina Bodily fluids, let’s go.

00:15:28:23 - 00:15:41:13 Gabrielle Let’s go through bodily fluids. Someone in my studio made a piss painting by weeing on toilet paper and smashing it onto a canvas. And during a crit a visiting lecturer touched.

00:15:41:22 - 00:15:43:24 Speaker 3 No!

00:15:44:01 - 00:16:04:06 Gabrielle it and praised the texture.’ I don’t know if this happened when you were in like primary school, but people used to like wet paper, like paper towels and stuff and like throw them on the ceiling. That’s what I’m visualizing.

00:16:04:06 - 00:16:16:05 Zarina When you said that, I was imagining that they’d wee on the paper towel, use the paper towel to daub the piece. Maybe, maybe they’d use the piss like in a watercolor situation.

00:16:16:22 - 00:16:18:00 Gabrielle Oh yeah, that.

00:16:18:00 - 00:16:22:16 Zarina Would be quite beautiful, actually. You could make some very haunting imagery.

00:16:22:16 - 00:16:27:02 Gabrielle What would you have to, like, eat and drink in the day, though, to get those shades that you needed? Do you know what I mean?

00:16:27:02 - 00:16:28:17 Speaker 3 No, no. You’d use it on like a-

00:16:28:21 - 00:16:29:22 Zarina I drink water all day.

00:16:29:22 - 00:16:30:05 Speaker 3 There’s a.

00:16:30:05 - 00:16:35:14 Zarina Windsor Newton water colotr palette. You just use the piss instead of normal water.

00:16:35:22 - 00:16:38:24 Gabrielle Oh, it would be like the activation agent.

00:16:39:09 - 00:16:47:20 Zarina Yeah. And it would simply evaporate off but you’d know it’s piss. Fucking hell. That’s a kink.

00:16:47:20 - 00:16:52:23 Speaker 3 Not to shame anyone but But that must be a kink. Someone’s fucking into

00:16:52:23 - 00:16:57:03 Zarina That somewhere in the world there’s someone who’s listening to this like yeahhh.

00:16:58:08 - 00:17:09:15 Gabrielle There were a lot of messages about like sex-related stuff and I didn’t include all of them because I didn’t want to quite frankly.

00:17:09:16 - 00:17:10:04 Speaker 3 There’s more?

00:17:10:11 - 00:17:29:08 Gabrielle And so you know things like: goldsmiths art student, someone spends their crit having sex in a box brackets really. One student created a performance piece in which they filmed themselves and a partner having sex in one of the university’s public bathrooms.

00:17:31:07 - 00:17:31:16 Speaker 3 And.

00:17:33:21 - 00:17:35:07 Zarina What sized box?

00:17:36:00 - 00:17:41:07 Gabrielle Good question, because I was thinking exactly the same.

00:17:41:23 - 00:17:43:02 Zarina Not shoe box.

00:17:43:09 - 00:17:50:15 Gabrielle And did they make the box themselves? Like did they go to the workshop in uni and be like, Listen, I’ve got these measurements. Can you help me make this box?

00:17:51:02 - 00:17:54:03 Zarina Because a gazebo? A gazebo-sized box.

00:17:54:07 - 00:17:55:07 Gabrielle Is just a room.

00:17:55:17 - 00:18:04:19 Speaker 3 That’s – But - -

00:18:05:15 - 00:18:20:13 Gabrielle Moving on, but not really. A mature student presented her post-coital fluids painting like she literally just squatted over a canvas after sex with her husband and then brought it in to show a bunch of 18 year olds.

00:18:20:18 - 00:18:21:02 Speaker 3 Why.

00:18:21:02 - 00:18:38:04 Zarina have you gotta involve all these people? You know, I mean, some people are into that. That’s fine. But it’s just a lack of consent for me. You’ve not asked those people, hello, would you like to see my sex fluids painting?

00:18:38:13 - 00:18:49:18 Gabrielle That’s a good point. Because we ask for consent in order to show like, you know, explicit imagery. I want to know when it’s explicit materials.

00:18:50:16 - 00:18:54:18 Zarina Which you might have done. You don’t know. Actually, we don’t know. She might have been like, Hey, guys.

00:18:56:05 - 00:18:57:18 Gabrielle Can I show you this?

00:18:57:18 - 00:19:02:22 Zarina My sex fluid painting? And they might been like

00:19:02:22 - 00:19:04:04 Speaker 3 Yeah, go on.

00:19:04:20 - 00:19:19:16 Zarina But there’s something there. There’s something. It’s not just like, here’s the painting, it’s bodily. Oh my God - - -Freud would have a field day with this.

00:19:20:17 - 00:19:22:23 Gabrielle I feel like I want to have a field day with this.

00:19:23:03 - 00:19:24:11 Zarina Shall we do some psychoanalysis.

00:19:24:11 - 00:19:27:03 Gabrielle Let’s do some psychoanalysis like we know what we’re talking about.

00:19:27:03 - 00:19:35:08 Zarina Because I think there’s a degree of exhibitionism which if that’s your bag, that’s your bag. But call it what it is.

00:19:37:01 - 00:19:37:10 Speaker 3 Yeah.

00:19:37:17 - 00:19:39:23 Zarina Not to sound like a prude. I sound like a prude. No.

00:19:40:13 - 00:19:42:13 Gabrielle I’m worried we might sound like prudes.

00:19:42:23 - 00:19:47:03 Zarina I just think, you know, if you’re gonna fuck, fuck, why have you got to bring art into it?

00:19:47:20 - 00:19:48:15 Gabrielle Yeah.

00:19:48:22 - 00:20:08:10 Zarina But then again, why not? Playing devil’s advocate? This – it’s not edgy. No one’s saying it’s edgy. Mm. But bodies are there as material. And if you’re – not the box but – sex fluids – if you’re

00:20:08:16 - 00:20:09:19 Speaker 3 using the piss

00:20:11:19 - 00:20:23:23 Zarina As watercolor. Water’s scarce, right. You know, there might be a water crisis. You know what I mean? Like, it’s recycling.

00:20:25:04 - 00:20:26:19 Gabrielle Cough, cough, recycle.

00:20:26:19 - 00:20:29:22 Speaker 3 I don’t know. I don’t know where I’m going with this, but it’s.

00:20:29:22 - 00:20:30:16 Zarina Somewhere.

00:20:31:20 - 00:20:57:04 Gabrielle Is the devil’s advocate point more like: maybe she’s just like so into her relationship and she’s so into like that very primal act of sexual intercourse, that like, that’s the type of shit we should be making art about. And arguably we also should be making art about… shit and, you know, we’re like all the bits -

00:20:57:11 - 00:20:58:14 Speaker 3 No, no, no, no, no.

00:20:58:15 - 00:21:04:17 Gabrielle But like, all the bits of us. All the bits of us. Why are you trying to censor the shit?

00:21:05:04 - 00:21:07:11 Speaker 3 Gab? I can excuse the sex.

00:21:07:11 - 00:21:09:05 Zarina I draw the line at the shit, okay?

00:21:09:13 - 00:21:11:16 Speaker 3 Like, I mean, the sex I can understand because.

00:21:11:16 - 00:21:32:18 Zarina Yeah, I’ll get that in the heat of the moment. The passion. The passion. Right. That’s something you maybe want to capture because it’s productive. You know, there’s energy there, right? I can get on board – let’s all – let’s – what – do you know– No! Do you know what, if you really about it let’s see you and your husband

00:21:32:18 - 00:21:48:21 Speaker 3 Fuck live and direct in front of us here. Why am I seeing the detritus, the fucking periphery? Fuck the fluids. I want to – I want to be in the splash zone. I want to feel like I’m at Sea World. Yeah. Look.

00:21:49:12 - 00:21:52:08 Gabrielle I feel like I’m having an out-of-body moment.

00:21:53:12 - 00:22:03:22 Speaker 3 I’m like, signal to help. I’d like to stop it. Let’s just stop. Okay? If we stop now, if we cut our losses, we can quit while we’re ahead

00:22:03:23 - 00:22:08:01 Gabrielle We just started to, like, resurrect YouTube. That YouTube channel, banned.

00:22:09:00 - 00:22:11:09 Speaker 3 Demonetized.

00:22:14:04 - 00:22:34:02 Zarina I do stand by that though. If you really about it, do it here now. It’s because I feel that – I feel like the sex fluid painting is a measly middle point. You were just giving me a halfway house. If you really want to be gratified by involving all of us 18 year olds in your sexual activity. Just do it here. Do it then.

00:22:35:03 - 00:22:36:13 Gabrielle You wimp.

00:22:36:21 - 00:22:37:18 Zarina Yeah, wimp.

00:22:38:23 - 00:23:05:04 Gabrielle Speaking of weird students, let’s move on to the other category, because I’m done with bodily fluids. You know, it wasn’t the end of bodily fluids, but it’s the end for me. First project of the year, this one guy, this is really good: This one guy in my foundation course at Chelsea did a performance art piece where he pretended to be dead and didn’t come in for the rest of the time.

00:23:06:11 - 00:23:10:05 Speaker 3 Funny. Pretty funny.

00:23:10:05 - 00:23:11:00 Zarina Did he pass though?

00:23:11:14 - 00:23:13:11 Speaker 3 I don’t know.

00:23:14:01 - 00:23:14:13 Gabrielle Follow up.

00:23:15:02 - 00:23:15:12 Speaker 3 And.

00:23:16:13 - 00:23:17:07 Gabrielle Similarly.

00:23:18:03 - 00:23:18:13 Zarina Yeah.

00:23:19:02 - 00:23:29:16 Gabrielle A crit where we watched a film of a student playing a guitar with his penis and another where a student staged his own funeral. A lot of death.

00:23:29:16 - 00:23:33:23 Zarina I’ve got a lot of questions about the guitar. Okay. Not to hold up procedure.

00:23:34:00 - 00:23:35:15 Gabrielle Wouldn’t it really hurt?

00:23:36:06 - 00:23:42:08 Zarina That’s question number one. Two, was he hard?

00:23:44:18 - 00:23:46:00 Speaker 3 Didn’t even think about that.

00:23:46:06 - 00:23:48:05 Gabrielle I was just thinking this, like: floppy, floppy, floppy.

00:23:48:05 - 00:23:52:10 Speaker 3 Because you think with the – oh, oh, god.

00:23:54:09 - 00:24:00:13 Gabrielle Apologize to mubi. Look Mubi in the eyes and say I’m sorry for what I’ve done.

00:24:01:04 - 00:24:06:04 Zarina Mubi, I am so sorry for this. Please pay our invoice.

00:24:06:21 - 00:24:11:19 Gabrielle You get 30 days for free. The African Desperate is streaming exclusively on Mubi.

00:24:11:22 - 00:24:12:07 Speaker 3 Right.

00:24:12:15 - 00:24:13:23 Zarina I have a question about the penis.

00:24:14:17 - 00:24:15:00 Gabrielle Go.

00:24:16:01 - 00:24:29:06 Zarina Is it? You’d think right? You could get to a higher speed, more dexterity on the guitar string if it’s flaccid because.

00:24:29:06 - 00:24:31:20 Speaker 3 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:24:31:20 - 00:24:41:24 Zarina The movement there. No, cut this, cut this, cut this. You can just tell I don’t have a dick. The physics of it, the

00:24:41:24 - 00:24:48:07 Speaker 3 Physics, the physics of all these things. Like how, no, you pull a poo, no.

00:24:49:02 - 00:25:07:13 Gabrielle Another one to add: In a mark making lesson – for anyone who hasn’t been to art school and is just watching this,out of like morbid curiosity. Mark making is like literally what it says. You know, a lot of artists just get a bit of paint and put it on a canvas or a pencil and put it on a bit of paper.

00:25:07:23 - 00:25:21:03 Gabrielle But like mark making is supposed to be a way of thinking, what does that contact look like? How does that contact make contact? How does it happen? And how can we, like, innovate and make it look interesting visually?

00:25:21:06 - 00:25:21:17 Zarina How can we visualised it for ulterior motives?

00:25:21:22 - 00:25:22:14 Gabrielle Yeah.

00:25:22:19 - 00:25:24:02 Zarina

00:25:24:14 - 00:25:40:18 Gabrielle So in a mark making lesson, a boy in my group with dreadlocks brackets (who, may I add, was white) decided to cut one off, tie it to a stick and paint with it.

00:25:41:16 - 00:25:43:22 Speaker 3 Next, next. Let’s just move on.

00:25:44:11 - 00:26:09:12 Gabrielle Watching a man on my course spend weeks creating an eight foot puppet out of straw and mud. Then at an exhibition he hid inside it. He had his friends stand around, banging drums while he tore a hole in it from inside and crawled out completely naked, danced around, and then his girlfriend shaved his head bald.

00:26:09:24 - 00:26:16:05 Speaker 3 Okay. That’s a kink as well, that must be.

00:26:16:06 - 00:26:16:24 Zarina No shaming here.

00:26:17:04 - 00:26:27:24 Speaker 3 This is a safe space. Isn’t that the plot of the Wicker Man.

00:26:27:24 - 00:26:30:00 Gabrielle He went on to direct The Wicker Man.

00:26:30:12 - 00:26:40:13 Speaker 3 And this man’s name was Nicolas Cage. Oh, I’ve got

00:26:40:13 - 00:26:41:10 Zarina Something to say.

00:26:41:21 - 00:26:42:17 Gabrielle Go on.

00:26:42:17 - 00:26:47:10 Speaker 3 I hate this.

00:26:47:10 - 00:26:50:07 Gabrielle I genuinely feel like it’s an exorcism. I hate this.

00:26:50:07 - 00:26:55:22 Speaker 3 I’m in orbit. We’ve only been recording 30 minutes and I’m already losing the plot.

00:26:56:01 - 00:27:00:03 Gabrielle Can you sympathize with how bad I felt for the past 24 hours?

00:27:00:21 - 00:27:08:04 Zarina You know, when you hear those horrifying stories about, like, Facebook moderators that have to go through all this crap and they see terrible shit. That’s you.

00:27:08:09 - 00:27:08:20 Speaker 3 Yeah.

00:27:10:10 - 00:27:45:10 Gabrielle Because I should say – bring it back everyone – come back to Earth for a second. You know, 70% of the messages that we got when we invited our lovely, unfortunately traumatized, audience to share these stories with us, they were like on point in terms of like the the core weirdness of going to art school and it all being like, Yeah, very strange and mystical and like, you know, you come out of the other side of it very changed because of intangible forces.

00:27:45:10 - 00:27:54:22 Gabrielle But 30% of the stories were not funny at all. Like 30% of the stories were like genuinely like – Zarina, stop laughing.

00:27:54:22 - 00:27:58:02 Speaker 3 I’m thinking about pulling a poo – I can’t, it’s just –

00:27:58:02 - 00:28:04:24 Gabrielle 30% of the stories were about like, genuinely bad practice. Like, HR shit.

00:28:05:13 - 00:28:06:04 Speaker 3 Reporting

00:28:06:05 - 00:28:31:00 Gabrielle students and tutors and other people for like horrible violations. It is like, sometimes these bad things happen in art school, but like the weirdness allows for them to happen. Like people almost just act like the strange violations are okay because it’s art school and you can do whatever you want. And that is bizarre.

00:28:31:10 - 00:28:50:19 Zarina I think it’s like in that lawlessness of like there are no rules. We make the rules. There’s always some dickhead that turns up and is likw, no rules? I’m going to be an absolute fucking prick. Like the worst prick that you could ever imagine. And We have people that are, like, worse, like worse that I imagine exist out there.

00:28:51:03 - 00:29:22:08 Zarina Like, and you know what? That is really fucking uncool. Like, if you’re gonna sit – the whole point of that lawless space, right, is that you’re meant to open up new, new channels of understanding, right? You’re meant to be this – it’s meant to be good for everyone. And when there’s one dickhead hat comes in and like just does nonsense, like proper violent shit, it just kind of – it’s not educational, it’s not illustrative, it’s not productive.

00:29:22:08 - 00:29:24:00 Zarina It’s actually just horrible.

00:29:24:04 - 00:29:44:06 Gabrielle We could just do a separate episode where we do talk about like the actual serious things that people get away with. But you know, there are things like this. So someone said that they remember the kid that brought a huge pile of soil into one of the rooms to roll around in semi naked for their performance piece.

00:29:44:12 - 00:29:45:09 Zarina Always naked.

00:29:45:15 - 00:30:07:00 Gabrielle I later heard that the uni had to relay all the parquet floor in that room because all the dirt got stuck – and it’s like funny. But it’s again, it’s that lawlessness. Like, it’s like the room, the building that you’re in doesn’t exist. And like the people who clean it don’t exist. And the people who, like, fix the lights don’t exist because you’re like this art student

00:30:07:00 - 00:30:14:13 Gabrielle who just thinks that they’re fucking like, they’re a god. They can do whatever they want and they’re rolling in the dirt.

00:30:14:24 - 00:30:17:01 Zarina Could have just put a tarp down, you know what I mean?

00:30:17:01 - 00:30:18:23 Gabrielle C ould have just put something down.

00:30:18:23 - 00:30:21:02 Speaker 3 On the floor.

00:30:21:02 - 00:30:31:14 Zarina I mean, it does for me– I have a question – devil’s advocate. Why does an art school got parquet floor.

00:30:32:10 - 00:30:34:14 Gabrielle Honestly good question.

00:30:35:06 - 00:30:35:14 Speaker 3 But.

00:30:35:14 - 00:30:46:12 Zarina You know it’s an art school if it’s meant to be this lawless space just like – but you should make the – the student should be cleaning up at the end of that you know, like if you’re going to make the mess you’ve got to clean it.

00:30:46:22 - 00:30:49:11 Gabrielle Yeah.

00:30:49:11 - 00:31:05:03 Zarina Look, why are you doing irreparable damage to. You know what I mean? I don’t like – you see all these these art schools like, oh, in a grade something historic building. We can’t do anything on the walls or fucking – Why are we here? That’s the whole point.

00:31:05:13 - 00:31:10:07 Gabrielle Yeah.

00:31:10:07 - 00:31:11:08 Speaker 3 I feel like I’m on the.

00:31:11:08 - 00:31:16:17 Zarina Moon. Gab, this has sent me into a spiral.

00:31:16:24 - 00:31:19:04 Gabrielle Yeah, I’m not even here.

00:31:19:08 - 00:31:21:12 Zarina My moral compass is going like this.

00:31:22:14 - 00:31:23:10 Gabrielle It’s spinning.

00:31:25:11 - 00:31:25:21 Speaker 3

00:31:26:11 - 00:31:49:19 Gabrielle Yeah. Like there was this theme of people who just seemed like so above the rules. Like often people who were described as, like rich or whatever, posh, in the messages. So someone had said students skateboarding in the studios between sculptures and expensive equipment. And when at Chelsea, I overheard a girl saying that she wanted to live in South London because it’s dirtier.

00:31:49:19 - 00:31:55:17 Speaker 3 No, no.

00:31:56:04 - 00:31:58:08 Zarina There’s a quiet part to that, isn’t it?

00:31:58:08 - 00:32:29:10 Gabrielle It’s quite loud. One time, this girl in a crit said Peanut butter and jelly sandwiches are for poor people. And and that bringing your own lunch from home in general is for poor people. A very posh girl who was a Tory literally brought in her own knackered converse as a piece for crit, said with her full chest that they represented homelessness.

00:32:29:10 - 00:32:30:15 Speaker 3 This is just bad.

00:32:30:15 - 00:32:41:00 Zarina Bad art. The peanut butter jelly comment is out of pocket. So out of pocket. And, you know, sometimes it’s just nice to bring your own lunch. Why’ve you got to be stupid.

00:32:41:00 - 00:32:41:21 Speaker 3 That’s stupid.

00:32:42:11 - 00:32:43:23 Zarina The converse is just bad art.

00:32:45:06 - 00:32:45:14 Gabrielle Yeah.

00:32:45:23 - 00:32:47:11 Zarina Well, just tell me you don’t have any ideas.

00:32:47:19 - 00:32:51:21 Gabrielle The posh girls on my foundation at Camberwell went through a phase of never wearing.

00:32:51:21 - 00:32:52:08 Speaker 3 Shoes.

00:32:52:15 - 00:32:57:05 Gabrielle Bare foot at all times.

00:32:57:05 - 00:33:13:20 Zarina Okay, in the park around the corner from my mum’s house. I used to go running when I still living with my mum. And there was this guy that would like run barefoot all seasons, not on the path through like the wooded bit.

00:33:16:04 - 00:33:17:07 Speaker 3 That’s hardcore.

00:33:18:00 - 00:33:36:19 Zarina Really hardcore. And I was I think this is bizarre but apparently right it’s better for you to run barefoot because it’s stabilizing. I mean, that doesn’t mean you should do it. I think that’s incredibly foolish in London to be running barefoot. He crazy.

00:33:37:05 - 00:33:45:21 Gabrielle Okay, devil’s advocate. Are we being the police? Are we being like the body police?

00:33:46:14 - 00:33:55:03 Zarina Maybe we are. Maybe we’re. Because when we were at art school, we were like, Oh, yeah, these old people, they don’t get it. They don’t get it. We’re the old people. The old people, police.

00:33:55:06 - 00:33:57:16 Gabrielle Are we the old people because we’re 28.

00:33:58:03 - 00:34:05:13 Zarina So do you know what in the interests of like appearing cool yeah. Pull the shit out your arse.

00:34:07:04 - 00:34:07:15 Speaker 3 Love it.

00:34:08:12 - 00:34:16:14 Gabrielle I was – I don’t know – I’ve lost – I don’t even know how to transition into this one. I’m feeling the toll of all of this.

00:34:16:22 - 00:34:19:11 Zarina So let’s just do like a hard transition.

00:34:19:20 - 00:34:43:20 Gabrielle In NCAD – do you remember NCAD? we went there National College of Art and Design in Dublin. In NCAD we had the naked dancing Society. It was supposed to be done in a private room, but you could see into the window from the building across. boobs were flying. Naked dance society.

00:34:45:05 - 00:34:47:09 Speaker 3 Sounds kind of fun doesn’t it.

00:34:49:16 - 00:34:53:19 Gabrielle Like a little bit fun. Like a little bit fun.

00:34:54:02 - 00:34:57:24 Zarina Do you know what? Yeah.

00:34:59:01 - 00:35:00:12 Speaker 3 Look, fine.

00:35:00:12 - 00:35:21:12 Zarina I’ll admit it. I wouldn’t join but I am pro nude dancing in the privacy of my – Do you know what, I think in the privacy of your own home kind of defeats the point because you want to do it in a community with other people. Maybe. Should we try it right now?

00:35:21:12 - 00:35:23:24 Speaker 3 Demonetized. No, no.

00:35:24:00 - 00:35:31:11 Zarina Like let’s just let’s try it. Next time you’re down in London, we can have a naked dancing house party.

00:35:31:17 - 00:35:45:10 Gabrielle The next time we’re in Dublin. So this is… I’m interested in a follow up question to you and the world. Can you do this outside of art school? Like all the places that you can go.

00:35:45:19 - 00:35:50:13 Zarina To naked dance? There must be, there must be.

00:35:50:13 - 00:35:56:19 Gabrielle Because devil’s advocate, I don’t know even think this is devil’s advocate at this point.

00:35:56:19 - 00:36:02:19 Speaker 3 Everytime one of us devil’s advocates, I full body clench. I just.

00:36:03:15 - 00:36:16:19 Gabrielle Because right there is a freedom in art school, you know, day one: clean slate, blank canvas. What are you going to make? What you going to do with your time here? You can do whatever the fuck you want.

00:36:16:20 - 00:36:19:08 Zarina But was Naked Dancing Society a piece of work?

00:36:20:03 - 00:36:26:15 Gabrielle But it’s in the art school. It’s a student society from the minds of artists and designers.

00:36:26:23 - 00:36:42:05 Zarina In that case, devil’s advocate. Maybe it’s loosening you up, you know, putting you in an alternative headspace to really get creative, like maybe you go to naked dancing society, unblock a synapse and then make a masterpiece.

00:36:42:20 - 00:36:52:05 Gabrielle Exactly. Because you’re more in touch with your body. But would you rather be more in touch with your body by naked dancing or pulling a shit out of yourself?

00:36:53:08 - 00:36:53:16 Speaker 3 Naked dancing.

00:36:53:17 - 00:36:56:05 Gabrielle I’d rather do naked dancing, which is why

00:36:56:18 - 00:37:24:09 Zarina Well, actually, because, right, that’s just my answer. If you’ve got like body hang ups, right? If you’re not body positive, you’re body negative, last thing you want is to be naked in front of strangers or even people you know, worse people you know. And actually, there is nothing dirty or shameful about reaching into the crevices of your own body and pulling out something that you have produced yourself.

00:37:24:14 - 00:37:31:06 Zarina I’m pro shit pulling. I’ve thought about this now and I’m going to try it when we get off this call next time I do a shit.

00:37:31:15 - 00:37:37:18 Speaker 3 Oh, I’m going to – I am simply going to reach into my own anal orifice and

00:37:38:04 - 00:37:44:04 Zarina Grasp the emergent turd. I’m going to give it a go.

00:37:44:12 - 00:37:51:14 Gabrielle It’s a new kind of mark making. I’m – I just want to delete everything that we’ve said.

00:37:52:21 - 00:38:09:01 Zarina I think we could cut our losses now 50 minutes isn’t that bad. Let’s just cancel it all and. No, you know what? I don’t know if I’m just desensitized. Out of all the stories you’ve told me so far, naked dancing has got.

00:38:09:01 - 00:38:12:04 Speaker 3 Like, a wholesome, good vibe. Exactly. Yeah.

00:38:12:18 - 00:38:15:07 Gabrielle That’s what I mean. It feels really good vibes.

00:38:15:15 - 00:38:17:09 Speaker 3 Would you do it?

00:38:19:23 - 00:38:26:07 Gabrielle Honestly, if if we weren’t the White Pube and no one knew who I was. Potentially.

00:38:26:17 - 00:38:27:08 Zarina You think you’re too.

00:38:27:08 - 00:38:29:09 Speaker 3 Big for naked dancing now, do you?

00:38:31:03 - 00:38:41:09 Gabrielle Yeah. I mean, I’m not going to lie. Yeah, we can’t go places without getting recognized. I’m not going to naked dancing in an art school.

00:38:41:09 - 00:38:53:04 Zarina Can you imagine the next time we do a lecture in person? Yeah. And they’re like, stick around after we got one of the societies you can join in. Naked dancing.

00:38:53:04 - 00:39:11:19 Gabrielle Moving on. Okay. These two made me laugh. Carry on. Good vibes. Okay. During my MA I was marked down for using the word motherfucker too much in my writing. Honestly, it just felt like that was a brag.

00:39:12:22 - 00:39:17:08 Speaker 3 Yeah. Just a flex. Okay. Yeah, yeah.

00:39:17:21 - 00:39:30:11 Gabrielle Someone else. Someone else said that they remembered a performance piece where a student sat naked in a small room and played Death Stranding while we peered in through the door. No shade though, he was the loveliest guy.

00:39:31:17 - 00:39:32:07 Zarina Before you said that line –

00:39:34:12 - 00:39:35:04 Speaker 3 Was it me?

00:39:36:00 - 00:39:41:18 Zarina Before you said that last sentence I was about to chip in and be like: And that student went on to become Gabrielle.

00:39:44:22 - 00:39:45:24 Speaker 3 Because as a member

00:39:45:24 - 00:39:48:12 Zarina Of the Naked Dancing Society. It doesn’t make.

00:39:48:12 - 00:39:50:13 Speaker 3 Sense to put your clothes on because.

00:39:51:08 - 00:40:08:11 Gabrielle The guy, Norman Reedus playing Sam in Death Stranding is naked for so much of that game. Like there’s an option when you go to like the little lobby part of the game to just have a shower or shit or a piss. So You just see him just like take his clothes off. What is it about the nakedness?

00:40:09:21 - 00:40:31:16 Zarina Nakedness is very banal, it’s very normal. It is a part of human existence. And if we are making things that encompass the entirety of human existence, like all of us, we’re not Victorians, we’re not prudes as we know – we’re fine with people showing us their intercourse, fluid paintings. We’re fine with that.

00:40:31:16 - 00:40:33:09 Gabrielle Yeah. Apparently we’ve changed our minds.

00:40:34:05 - 00:40:34:20 Zarina Totally. Yeah.

00:40:35:04 - 00:40:35:13 Speaker 3 You know.

00:40:35:23 - 00:41:00:04 Zarina I feel like we really convinced ourselves around on that one, and we’re fine with that. So nudity. Banal. Fine. Artwork should be able to represent the naked experience. And so I think on one hand it’s fine, valid, great. Ten out of ten, continue as you were. On the other hand, I think there is nothing radical or shocking about the naked body.

00:41:00:07 - 00:41:16:22 Zarina So stop thrusting it in my face because I don’t know about you, but every time I go to the gym and I go to the changing room, there is a nude person there with their bum directly where I need to be. So I see enough naked people without asking for it.

00:41:16:22 - 00:41:17:10 Gabrielle Mm.

00:41:17:16 - 00:41:20:21 Zarina Please, no more. I’m at capacity actually.

00:41:21:09 - 00:41:22:00 Gabrielle Yeah.

00:41:22:24 - 00:41:27:04 Zarina So, I can’t decide which opinion I want to have.

00:41:28:00 - 00:41:30:12 Gabrielle You know, you’re a complex person.

00:41:30:20 - 00:41:32:04 Zarina I contain multitudes.

00:41:32:15 - 00:41:36:15 Gabrielle You can, you can believe all of it. Do you want to move onto weird tutors?

00:41:37:06 - 00:41:39:22 Zarina Were all the weird students just naked stuff?

00:41:41:02 - 00:41:41:20 Gabrielle Basically.

00:41:41:20 - 00:41:42:03 Speaker 3 Yeah.

00:41:42:22 - 00:42:01:14 Zarina Okay. And so I guess that if we are going to turn this into a teachable moment, then we can say moral of the story is if you are about go to art school and you want to be cool, keep your clothes on, you want people to like you unless you’re playing death stranding in a room naked.

00:42:02:02 - 00:42:03:22 Gabrielle Yeah. At least there’s a point to that.

00:42:04:05 - 00:42:08:07 Zarina Yeah. Learn from this so you don’t have to.

00:42:08:21 - 00:42:15:15 Gabrielle When it comes to the weird tutor stuff, a lot of it was comments that were made to students in crits.

00:42:16:07 - 00:42:20:03 Zarina I can already tell this is going to be my least favorite one of these.

00:42:21:07 - 00:42:38:18 Gabrielle Or the funniest? I was told to be careful or my work will look like an IKEA lampshade. Not a bad thing. And someone said to a student, don’t use your powers of design to scare people.

00:42:38:18 - 00:42:48:03 Speaker 3 Use your powers of design for good. With great powers of design come great responsibility.

00:42:48:03 - 00:42:53:03 Gabrielle I was told I draw like a man once. I don’t know if that was good or bad.

00:42:53:04 - 00:42:53:24 Speaker 3 Question mark.

00:42:54:11 - 00:42:55:17 Zarina You draw like a man?

00:42:56:09 - 00:42:57:12 Gabrielle Yeah. What does that mean?

00:42:58:00 - 00:43:01:18 Zarina That literally means nothing. What it means is your tutor’s probably a misogynist.

00:43:02:04 - 00:43:14:00 Gabrielle Mm. My tutor at CSM once showed up to a tutorial high and with a pirate patch and told me the film I had made had the narrative structure of a blowjob.

00:43:17:04 - 00:43:22:20 Speaker 3 What a comment. Go on. I’m going to start saying that

00:43:22:23 - 00:43:31:03 Zarina I’m going to turn up high and I’m going to be like this has a narrative structure of a blowjob and people are going to be like:

00:43:31:03 - 00:43:34:12 Speaker 3 They were so wise! Oh, my God, what does that mean?

00:43:34:22 - 00:43:36:15 Zarina The narrative structure of a.

00:43:36:15 - 00:43:38:01 Speaker 3 Blowjob.

00:43:38:22 - 00:43:46:13 Gabrielle For someone – for an alien who’s just landed on this planet. How do you explain that to someone?

00:43:47:01 - 00:43:51:01 Zarina Well, that sentence has got energy for me.

00:43:51:16 - 00:43:53:10 Gabrielle Every blowjob is different.

00:43:55:01 - 00:43:56:13 Speaker 3 It’s like a snowflake.

00:43:56:16 - 00:44:06:03 Gabrielle Is this tutor having, like, the exact same repetitive sexual act like he knows when the ending is?

00:44:06:03 - 00:44:09:21 Zarina You don’t know – does it say pronouns.

00:44:10:08 - 00:44:15:15 Gabrielle It didn’t. It could be anyone.

00:44:16:02 - 00:44:34:14 Zarina But also, in defence of this tutor and their critical opinion about the narrative structure of this film, which we’re going to take seriously. And you do know that – see – no maybe not at the end of every blowjob, maybe all of mine.

00:44:34:23 - 00:44:35:04 Speaker 3 Yeah.

00:44:35:13 - 00:44:39:23 Zarina Oh, I know what’s coming.

00:44:39:23 - 00:44:49:02 Speaker 3 Cut that, cut that. No, I’m not going to cut it.

00:44:49:14 - 00:44:53:23 Zarina You know, maybe. But you don’t.

00:44:53:23 - 00:44:54:19 Speaker 3 There’s an expected.

00:44:54:19 - 00:44:57:00 Zarina Outcome, you know, and it come.

00:44:57:23 - 00:45:05:20 Speaker 3 It come. No, no, none of that. None of that. All of it, Zarina, all of it.

00:45:06:06 - 00:45:21:22 Zarina All right, everyone settle down and get your minds out the gutter. I understand this comment, right? Because there’s an expected outcome and when it arrives, you’re not surprised. But you are pleasantly

00:45:23:07 - 00:45:25:12 Speaker 3 You’re pleased. Yeah.

00:45:26:05 - 00:45:30:00 Zarina And so - you better cut that Gabrielle. You better cut that.

00:45:30:03 - 00:45:50:23 Gabrielle I’m not cutting any of that. I’ll put it all in. We got a lot of messages that were along the lines of this. 1st year of uni. I make a short film featuring my brown family. The white tutor tells me You make political art. What’s that supposed to mean?

00:45:50:23 - 00:45:52:11 Zarina Tutor’s racist, move on.

00:45:53:00 - 00:46:11:15 Gabrielle A person who simultaneously streaked through the campus was also a life model for no reason and a tutor who told me In order for me to progress, I have to make art about my blackness and not other issues I was doing it about. Yet again forcing black artists to only retraumatize themselves.

00:46:12:06 - 00:46:38:04 Zarina Oh, that’s just racist. It’s just racist. It’s just ye olde racism. Like, it’s not even fun racism where it’s like, Oh, my God. Oh, you got like with it. It’s literally just racism. Like, it’s just – it’s not even creative. You could get fun and funky with it. I want to hear some new racism. I hope, in the year of our Lord 2022, if we’re going to do racism, start with some new shit.

00:46:38:04 - 00:46:41:16 Zarina You know what? Mix it up a bit. Freestyle remix.

00:46:42:21 - 00:47:14:15 Gabrielle Someone said, I’m from Jordan and in second year I made a series of illustrations about toxic masculinity in the Arab world. I had a group tutorial of show Don’t Tell. At the end the tutor didn’t get it and just said he saw terrorist imagery and said My platforms can fit a bomb – islamophobic asshole. White male tutor told the only nonwhite person in our group that he shouldn’t make any political work.

00:47:14:15 - 00:47:39:17 Gabrielle And I bring this up because it’s obviously important. But we got so many messages that said the exact same thing. Tutors just absolutely bamboozled and also like offended that any student that wasn’t white was overtly political or they were like projecting politicalness onto their identity.

00:47:40:00 - 00:47:40:17 Speaker 3 Yeah.

00:47:41:01 - 00:47:42:03 Zarina That is interesting.

00:47:42:09 - 00:47:43:10 Gabrielle It is interesting.

00:47:44:07 - 00:47:46:21 Zarina It’s definitely something I experienced at art school.

00:47:47:22 - 00:47:48:17 Gabrielle Tell me about.

00:47:49:14 - 00:48:24:21 Zarina I feel like I got that feedback where it was like, Well, this is political. And I was like, Is it okay? All right, fine. And I started like leaning into that politicality and getting fun and funky with it, and people were like, Whoa! And all they saw was the political, the politics of the work. And they didn’t see the fun in Funky because I was being a dickhead at times and playing with the fact that it was being read as political by being like, I just – I was right –

00:48:24:22 - 00:48:41:19 Zarina I just think that I think people should shut up, basically. I think I think sometimes you should go to art school and you shouldn’t say fucking anything to people and just let them get on with what they’re making and maybe they’ll figure it out for themselves. I know that the entire point of art school is to go into a room with people and get their opinion.

00:48:42:01 - 00:48:53:19 Zarina And through that, like hearing other people’s opinions repeatedly for three years, you learn something. Sometimes the things you learn are not actually helpful or educational, and they’re actively damaging.

00:48:53:19 - 00:48:56:14 Speaker 3 Can you remember

00:48:56:21 - 00:49:10:10 Zarina aomw of the things that people said about mine and all the other ethnic minorities work, ethnic minorities, you know what I mean? I’ve just lost the plot. I’m in orbit. We’ve got a big Asian prime minister and I hate it.

00:49:10:20 - 00:49:15:03 Speaker 3 And like, I’m just feeling like Rishi.

00:49:15:03 - 00:49:19:14 Zarina Sunak’s at number ten Downing Street and I’m feeling racist towards Asians.

00:49:20:10 - 00:49:23:01 Speaker 3 That’s yeah.

00:49:23:10 - 00:49:31:07 Zarina You know what I mean? I just – it’s – racially speaking, I’m in a tense space. Okay.

00:49:31:07 - 00:49:33:10 Speaker 3 Okay. Do you remember do you remember some of the things that.

00:49:33:10 - 00:49:35:23 Zarina Were said to me or others? Because I don’t.

00:49:37:10 - 00:49:49:15 Gabrielle What stands out to me is the review of your work that you just – you’re like Bloomberg New contemporaries films.

00:49:49:15 - 00:49:50:22 Zarina That wasn’t really art school though? No, was it.

00:49:51:16 - 00:50:07:15 Gabrielle But it just it was on the cusp, wasn’t it? It was like we just left art school and Zarina was showing in Bloomberg New Contemporaries in the bluecoat in Liverpool the summer after and Waldemar Januszczak like posted a review of a – how was it phrased?

00:50:07:17 - 00:50:10:08 Zarina He called my work brave.

00:50:10:24 - 00:50:12:01 Gabrielle He called your work brave.

00:50:12:14 - 00:50:17:01 Zarina And it was because – it was – oh, I don’t even wanna say this

00:50:17:10 - 00:50:18:09 Gabrielle I know it’s.

00:50:19:20 - 00:50:20:05 Speaker 3 Oh.

00:50:20:13 - 00:50:56:05 Zarina But my work was terrible terrible. I should underline the I now look back on this work and I think you fool, you fool. You were so bad at making art and actually really you should have just been writing about it. You should have written through these thoughts. Tell, don’t show. Because showing is not something you’re good at. And it was me shaking my ass in a blue morph suit in front of drone footage.

00:50:56:18 - 00:51:13:15 Zarina Terrible, terrible, terrible. And you know what? Actually, I think there’s something to be said about – no offense to Bloomberg New contemporaries – but like, who fucking selected that work? Because the caliber of – the quality was objectively terrible. And I think why? Why did you choose it?

00:51:14:04 - 00:51:16:02 Gabrielle Because probably.

00:51:16:09 - 00:51:19:00 Zarina Is it just clickbait? It was just clickbait. I think it was just.

00:51:20:16 - 00:51:48:23 Gabrielle But also it’s it goes back to like that edginess thing of art school, doesn’t it? It’s like, oh, oh and almost, you know, maybe if I’m allowed to say a slight like allowance or accommodation because like you weren’t white, so you like if, if we can’t say these things, maybe this, this brown artist can say these things and, and then we can put them in our white cube gallery and then it’s hands off, walking away.

00:51:49:03 - 00:52:19:12 Zarina You know, it’s interesting because actually as well on the selection panel, there was an Asian artist. And I think there’s something about wanting to select something, wanting to select something. Oh, my God. They played the race card. And I just think that if you’re going to call someone’s work really political, you should have a think about what that means and you should be willing to explain what that means.

00:52:19:12 - 00:52:40:19 Zarina And there should be a better explanation than just like, Oh, well, you’ve got something of a funny tinge about you. You know, I’m – and that funny tinge comment was said by a Tory MP. That’s a joke. That’s called satire. Just to clarify, because I don’t – This has been a stressful enough episode as it is without me stressing people out.

00:52:40:20 - 00:52:41:16 Zarina That was satire.

00:52:42:14 - 00:53:12:12 Gabrielle I’m slightly looping us back around to the whole point of the episode, which was The African Desperate, which opens with a crit where it’s like Palace’s identity as a black artist isn’t like – everyone’s too afraid to talk about it, but like they want to talk about it so much and they talk around and they talk through it and they talk about it in like, this, kind of like slightly annoyed way.

00:53:13:11 - 00:53:13:18 Speaker 3 Yeah.

00:53:14:23 - 00:53:36:09 Gabrielle And it’s so uncomfortable. It’s uncomfortable in a way that just really made me think of every single person that messaged us saying, you know, either my work or someone else’s work was called political in a way that felt loaded because of their race. And every single person who sent those messages like that, I just thought like, please watch the film.

00:53:36:13 - 00:53:41:15 Gabrielle And I don’t even mean that in ‘we are sponsored so I’m trying to make you watch the film’ I just –

00:53:42:00 - 00:54:06:13 Zarina It’s therapeutic. There’s a catharsis. Yeah, yeah. I mean, there’s something about the scene, like the way it’s laid out. Like, I remember one of the edits I got back from Gab – Like when we write texts, we write it, and then we send it to each other and we have a little read through each other’s feedback. And one of the notes – I wrote about the crit scene – and then the note she sent back was like, You need to double down to make sure that you make a point about the fact that this is a script, like this is fiction.

00:54:06:13 - 00:54:15:03 Zarina Someone wrote this, it didn’t just come out of a Tutor. And it just didn’t occur to me that like – it was too real.

00:54:15:22 - 00:54:16:24 Gabrielle It is real, yeah.

00:54:16:24 - 00:54:41:11 Zarina And it’s really well written. It’s really well written because it’s not just really real, but it’s just like really well laid out. Like you can see the anatomy of like how things are moving within like the dynamics, the power play within that – because it just makes it – often in crits, ike in these moments, when tutors are saying this batshit crazy stuff to you, you don’t really know what’s going on.

00:54:41:11 - 00:55:01:23 Zarina It’s like being in a fight with a blindfold on, like, you just don’t know that. You don’t even know where things are coming from. Like, it’s just like you’re like, oh my God. Like this. Like, I’m feeling very attacked. Don’t know where the blows are coming from. Within that scene, everything feels clear. Like you can kind of – it feels forensic.

00:55:01:23 - 00:55:30:14 Zarina You can see the way it’s moving and I think that’s where the catharsis is, because not only can you recognize and relate to things that have been said to you, and I’m assuming that I’m speaking to all people who are not white at this point and not only can you relate to things that have been said to you, but you can kind of see through like being able to see the motivation behind like reasons why these things were said within that crit.

00:55:30:15 - 00:55:58:20 Zarina In the film, you kind of like it triggers you to think like, Oh my God, like maybe that it makes other things clearer. And I don’t know if that’s just like projection or like, just like maybe I need therapy, but I think there is like a weird – it does something. It’s affective, that scene, and I think it’s incredible that someone wrote it because it does things you know it’s not just a thing that exists in the world.

00:55:58:20 - 00:56:00:19 Zarina It’s a thing that does things in the world.

00:56:01:11 - 00:56:32:01 Gabrielle I think what you’re picking up on, though, is something like that I felt as a white person as well but for like class reasons, and I know other people who kind of feel like they have other boxes that they can sit in will have felt the same thing like: You’re sat in a tutorial, you might be an 18 year old, but you also might not be either.

00:56:32:01 - 00:56:52:05 Gabrielle You know, people of all ages go to art school but your whatever – you’re coming towards the tutors as the expert and the person who has all the knowledge and I remember being so impressed by our tutors and thinking like wow, you must have read so many books you must have been to so many exhibitions, you know so much.

00:56:52:05 - 00:57:17:08 Gabrielle You’ve been doing this for so long. Like there’s an implicit trust that you’re going to be able to guide me through like these aesthetic problems. But when, when they start speaking to you, it can be so and it can be so heavy and it can be so hard to, like, actually pull the bits out that are useful, that are any use and so that you can put them into practice.

00:57:17:21 - 00:57:18:03 Speaker 3 And.

00:57:18:12 - 00:57:20:17 Zarina That moment when you realize that actually your tutor is chatting shit.

00:57:22:13 - 00:57:48:14 Gabrielle They might be chatting shit, yeah. And actually it’s kind of a really strange way to learn, to be in a 1 to 1 tutorial or to be in a crit setting and like have these odd comments fly out of you, fly all around. Yeah. And you have to sort of take them away and like put them into the artwork and change the artwork into something new based on what all these other people have said.

00:57:48:14 - 00:58:10:18 Gabrielle Like it’s just difficult to, to make that translation. And so when you then add identity into the mix, it just complicates even more because then it’s like all of these moral values are added to everything and you don’t know what to do because you know who you are and what you’ve experienced. And this tutor has nothing to do with anything.

00:58:11:18 - 00:58:22:22 Gabrielle And yet they’re saying stuff to you. And because they’re in a position of power, you feel that you have to listen. It’s like speaking to the doctor when you’re sick, you just – you think like they know what they’re talking about so I probably should listen to them.

00:58:23:04 - 00:58:25:03 Speaker 3 But actually they might be wrong.

00:58:25:18 - 00:58:51:02 Zarina And it I think it’s like a double blind because so often when they’re chatting shit, the fact that they’re chatting shit – like the shit that’s coming at you is inscrutable – inscrutable – Inscrutable. And you’ve got to somehow, as an maybe 18 year old, maybe 58 year old, regardless, this is new to you. If you’re at art school, you’ve only been doing this three years, four years max.

00:58:51:15 - 00:59:10:05 Zarina No time at all. Maybe, I don’t know. Maybe you’ve been doing things and anyway, you’ve somehow got to parse this shit and see past this shit and like, figure out what they’re saying, why they’re saying it, and what it means that they’re saying it and.

00:59:13:11 - 00:59:14:05 Speaker 3 It could be anything.

00:59:15:03 - 00:59:29:22 Gabrielle So. So watching it as a scene in a film is like being able to hold it at a distance and also being able to pause it and go back and be like, Oh, watching how the chess pieces moved. (I watch it four times.) I watched it twice. I was like, Whoa.

00:59:30:06 - 00:59:30:22 Speaker 3 Whoa.

00:59:31:05 - 00:59:45:03 Zarina And the fourth time I was like, I felt like my mind – a little lid popped up on my head and all of a sudden, I could feel the breeze on my brain, like it was – I felt like it did something to me. I was like, Oh, my God.

00:59:45:03 - 00:59:46:21 Speaker 3 Like, mm. You know.

00:59:47:07 - 01:00:01:19 Gabrielle Yeah, I do know. And I’ve got one final comment, which is that maybe because moments like that are so inscrutable, to use your word, because it’s kind of perfect.

01:00:02:01 - 01:00:02:09 Speaker 3 Mm.

01:00:02:19 - 01:00:15:12 Gabrielle Maybe it is just fucking easier to pull a shit out your arse. It’s so much more straightforward. The crit after that would have been so simple. So simple.

01:00:15:23 - 01:00:16:01 Speaker 3 Yeah.

01:00:16:03 - 01:00:19:17 Zarina No, devil’s advocate. I heavily disagree.

01:00:20:12 - 01:00:22:13 Speaker 3 Big disagree.

01:00:22:20 - 01:00:24:10 Gabrielle I don’t even believe what I’m saying.

01:00:25:19 - 01:00:35:11 Zarina I know for a fact. I know for a fact on God. I would bet I would bet £1,000,000, a million big ones that the student that pulled this shit out there arse was white.

01:00:35:16 - 01:00:36:03 Speaker 3 Oh, yeah.

01:00:37:06 - 01:00:46:05 Zarina Because I know for a fact that you cannot say boo to a fucking goose, yeah, as anything else in art school without people being like.

01:00:46:05 - 01:00:48:10 Speaker 3 Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, hold this.

01:00:48:10 - 01:00:49:11 Gabrielle

01:00:49:11 - 01:00:50:12 Speaker 3 Political.

01:00:51:00 - 01:00:57:19 Zarina if I – imagine some.

01:00:58:16 - 01:00:59:04 Speaker 3 Some.

01:00:59:15 - 01:01:11:01 Zarina Student of color walks up to the performance night trousers unbuttoned – wouldn’t even hit your knees before people are like.

01:01:11:07 - 01:01:15:02 Speaker 3 Oh, my God.

01:01:15:15 - 01:01:17:18 Zarina You wouldn’t even get as far as pulling the shit.

01:01:18:05 - 01:01:18:24 Gabrielle No.

01:01:19:08 - 01:01:20:07 Speaker 3 It’d kick off.

01:01:20:07 - 01:01:22:13 Gabrielle You would have to suck it back in.

01:01:23:18 - 01:01:28:16 Speaker 3 You’d have to push it back in. Oh.

01:01:28:24 - 01:01:34:14 Gabrielle It’d just called a dirty protest. Security. You would

01:01:34:15 - 01:01:42:07 Zarina you would be personally implicated as a – I mean, maybe rightly or wrongly –

01:01:45:09 - 01:02:07:18 Gabrielle I’ve had enough as well. Basically, the moral of the story is that certain freedoms are allowed to certain people based on their identity and privilege. And all of that happens outside in the world, in all the world, in all the industries. But it is so fucking clear in art school. it is clear. Bright as day.

01:02:08:01 - 01:02:17:04 Zarina I think art school is a lawless place. But there are some laws and no one tells you what they are.

01:02:17:04 - 01:02:19:14 Speaker 3 You just have to spend 3 to 4 years figuring it out.

01:02:21:01 - 01:02:25:01 Gabrielle And then you leave and you can carry on with your life and.

01:02:26:04 - 01:02:33:05 Zarina Think about the fever dream that you’ve just experienced because actually it’s fucking wacky, mate.

01:02:34:20 - 01:02:54:15 Gabrielle You can stream the African Desperate. The new film by Martine Syms exclusively on Mubi, and you can watch it for 30 days for free. But also you get to watch all the other shit that’s on Mubi. I love Mubi. I watch it all the time. Please do it. Please, please sign up even if you don’t watch stuff.

01:02:54:18 - 01:02:58:02 Gabrielle But you will because there’s good stuff. Click the link. Send it to people.

01:02:58:02 - 01:02:58:14 Speaker 3

01:02:59:13 - 01:03:01:04 Gabrielle Put this on loop. No, no, don’t.

01:03:01:04 - 01:03:14:16 Zarina Don’t, I take it back. If you do listen four times, really whack the volume down to zero because do you know what? That was a terrible thing for me to say. I would like to apologize formally to our audience as well for the content that we’ve just unpacked. Thank you to our audience for sending things in.

01:03:15:03 - 01:03:22:21 Zarina Sorry, sorry that you experienced this. I’m sorry that you experienced this in second hand replay.

01:03:23:07 - 01:03:27:09 Gabrielle What do they expect? We’re called The White Pube. The end.

01:03:27:09 - 01:03:29:14 Zarina That doesn’t look that radical. Now,

01:03:30:00 - 01:03:30:05 Speaker 3 A.

01:03:30:05 - 01:03:33:24 Zarina Wacky name? I don’t think so. Someone’s pulling shit like a.

01:03:33:24 - 01:03:38:16 Speaker 3 Magician’s handkerchief out their bum, like

01:03:38:16 - 01:03:40:13 Zarina It’s a fucking fruit.

01:03:40:13 - 01:03:43:17 Speaker 3 wind-up. Oh, God. Oh, my God.

01:03:44:04 - 01:03:49:05 Zarina How is that the weirdest thing that you said in this podcast? That’s the thing I’m taking away.

01:03:49:05 - 01:04:06:10 Gabrielle That’s the thing we’ll never forget. Okay. Thank you for listening. Stream the African Desperate and see you on the next episode of the podcast. Byeeeeee

01:04:06:18 - 01:04:38:06 Speaker 4