Episode 21: We got a book deal????

Download transcript here or read below.

INFO:
we've been meaning to record this story for the past year and a half but we actually just got so busy writing the book and we shouldn't really be messing about uploading podcasts about it because it STILL isn't done 🤡

(I’m sorry these are formatted with timestamps and so many line breaks and stuff. I have run out of time to go through and make them single sentences wahhh)

00:00:17:23 - 00:00:20:19 Hello and welcome to the latest episode of The White Pube podcast.

00:00:20:19 - 00:00:22:21 My name is Gabrielle de la Puente.

00:00:22:21 - 00:00:24:06 I’m Zarina Muhammad.

00:00:24:06 - 00:00:29:13 And we’re making this episode because we’re not publishing a Sunday text today

00:00:29:15 - 00:00:33:08 and we haven’t published Sunday texts most of the summer.

00:00:33:10 - 00:00:36:24 And we just wanted to tell everyone where the fuck we’ve been

00:00:37:01 - 00:00:38:16 and also why we aren’t here now.

00:00:38:16 - 00:00:41:23 So we thought we’d just do a little tiny podcast episode

00:00:42:00 - 00:00:43:24 out of fear, shame, guilt,

00:00:43:24 - 00:00:46:24 obligation to our Patreon subscribers

00:00:47:00 - 00:00:50:07 Also minor embarrassment, which feels different to shame

00:00:50:07 - 00:00:54:04 like there’s a part of not publishing a text that feels embarrassing.

00:00:54:06 - 00:00:58:23 Yeah, because if you’re not aware, we have been writing on a website

00:00:58:23 - 00:01:00:09 that we’ve written together called The White Pube

00:01:00:09 - 00:01:05:01 since 2015, and we’ve been publishing texts basically every week

00:01:05:01 - 00:01:08:20 to explain where we’ve been, which I think is quite a good excuse…

00:01:08:22 - 00:01:11:17 But –

00:01:11:19 - 00:01:14:05 that shame that I was mentioning at the beginning

00:01:14:05 - 00:01:19:00 it’s like I have internalized this completely false information

00:01:19:02 - 00:01:22:09 So, say we’ve got about 700 Patreon

00:01:22:15 - 00:01:26:13 supporters and a few people have donated one-off

00:01:26:13 - 00:01:31:06 bits on PayPal and Ko-fi or however the fuck you pronounce that thing.

00:01:31:08 - 00:01:35:14 But in my head each one of those people gives us the full amount.

00:01:35:18 - 00:01:38:22 So if we don’t do anything, I feel like I need to explain to that one person

00:01:38:22 - 00:01:42:16 why we’ve let them down so deeply rather than why we’ve let

00:01:42:18 - 00:01:46:17 quite a big number of people down a little bit each or something like.

00:01:46:23 - 00:01:47:21 It’s not proportional.

00:01:47:21 - 00:01:52:15 The way I feel when I don’t do what I think we’re supposed to be doing online.

00:01:52:17 - 00:01:53:17 Does that make any sense?

00:01:53:17 - 00:01:54:12 In your mind,

00:01:54:12 - 00:01:56:04 Is it like instead of loads of people

00:01:56:04 - 00:01:59:20 giving a little bit, you’re like, it’s one person giving all of it?

00:01:59:22 - 00:02:00:18 And I feel so bad.

00:02:00:18 - 00:02:03:06 And you’ve got to sit them down.

00:02:03:06 - 00:02:05:24 Exactly! I don’t know why I think that, but that’s where we are.

00:02:05:24 - 00:02:10:20 Who’s the person? Describe the person.

00:02:10:22 - 00:02:13:04 What do they look like in your mind?

00:02:13:04 - 00:02:17:07 It’s like an AI-generated face of just like all the people

00:02:17:07 - 00:02:21:17 that have donated over the years and that it haunts me.

00:02:21:19 - 00:02:26:16 So we’ve been posting for eight years and there have been like four

00:02:26:16 - 00:02:29:13 or five times within that eight years when someone has said to me,

00:02:29:13 - 00:02:33:00 I think I’ve read everything you’ve ever posted.

00:02:33:02 - 00:02:36:13 One of them was when we were in – I want to say Sweden,

00:02:36:15 - 00:02:40:12 and we went for a drink with someone and they said, I actually

00:02:40:12 - 00:02:45:10 download every text you publish as a PDF in case the website ever goes down.

00:02:45:12 - 00:02:49:08 Someone just dm’d us one time to say it, someone

00:02:49:08 - 00:02:50:04 who is like

00:02:50:04 - 00:02:53:07 one of the first people who ever read us, I think said that to me as well.

00:02:53:10 - 00:02:59:10 So in my head it’s that person, the person who is like a fucking loyal – Sunday text, 11AM

00:02:59:10 - 00:03:01:20 they know that there’s going to be something new

00:03:01:20 - 00:03:05:20 and they don’t even have to check the Instagram or the Twitter to like,

00:03:05:22 - 00:03:08:19 get that notification because they just go straight to the source.

00:03:08:19 - 00:03:11:16 They just have the white pube bookmarked

00:03:11:16 - 00:03:15:16 and they check it on a sunday, like in an internal clock way.

00:03:15:18 - 00:03:18:04 That’s who I’m scared that we’re letting down.

00:03:18:04 - 00:03:22:20 But we need to explain what we’ve been because we’re being teases.

00:03:22:23 - 00:03:24:12 Okay.

00:03:24:14 - 00:03:25:06 Where’ve we been?

00:03:25:06 - 00:03:28:08 Direct address! Direct addresse to The Pube Person:

00:03:28:14 - 00:03:31:19 we’ve been busy writing a book.

00:03:31:21 - 00:03:33:16 It’s a good excuse.

00:03:33:16 - 00:03:35:10 Am I allowed to say that? It still

00:03:35:10 - 00:03:38:04 Feels illegal. Why else would we have recorded the podcast?

00:03:38:04 - 00:03:40:22 We have to say we’ve been writing a book.

00:03:40:22 - 00:03:43:17 Gabrielle Every time I say it aloud

00:03:43:17 - 00:03:45:08 I tell people and I’m like, I shouldn’t tell you this.

00:03:45:08 - 00:03:46:20 It’s a secret heheheeheeehe

00:03:46:20 - 00:03:50:11 I have to, like, give it like an air of naughtiness.

00:03:50:11 - 00:03:55:00 But because we’re sat down actually saying it aloud in like an official setting,

00:03:55:02 - 00:03:58:19 like you’re wearing the Game Pube t shirt right now, that’s an official setting.

00:03:58:22 - 00:04:03:10 This is an official pube cast! Roll it back.

00:04:03:12 - 00:04:04:17 Let’s scene set.

00:04:04:17 - 00:04:09:19 So, okay, As I said, we’ve been writing for years and years and years and years.

00:04:09:21 - 00:04:15:06 Over that time, we have accumulated quite the international audience of people.

00:04:15:08 - 00:04:17:22 And sporadically over the past

00:04:17:22 - 00:04:23:09 eight years, we’ve had messages from agents who have said, hello, you ever

00:04:23:14 - 00:04:28:13 thought about writing a book? And we’ve entertained it between ourselves.

00:04:28:13 - 00:04:30:19 We’ve been like, Ooh,

00:04:30:19 - 00:04:34:00 I feel like it’s something we could do and we should do to try and make money.

00:04:34:00 - 00:04:37:17 But at the same time, I don’t want to and I don’t feel ready

00:04:37:17 - 00:04:38:23 and I actually don’t think

00:04:38:23 - 00:04:41:23 I’ve got anything to say that hasn’t already been said before.

00:04:42:02 - 00:04:45:22 And I don’t want to embarrass myself in public like there was definitely,

00:04:45:22 - 00:04:50:05 for me an element of I actually think I’m too young to write a book.

00:04:50:10 - 00:04:52:01 My brain wasn’t developed.

00:04:52:01 - 00:04:55:01 It’s not developed until you’re like 25.

00:04:55:06 - 00:04:56:24 So maybe up until the age of 25.

00:04:56:24 - 00:05:00:10 I felt like, Thank you for getting in touch.

00:05:00:12 - 00:05:04:17 Thank you for taking us to Dishoom for a meal and giving us some free books.

00:05:04:19 - 00:05:06:08 Thank you for taking us to Joe and the Juice

00:05:06:08 - 00:05:09:18 so that we could have this conversation and say like, What the fuck’s an agent?

00:05:09:20 - 00:05:13:15 But ultimately it just never felt like the right time.

00:05:13:17 - 00:05:17:12 So we didn’t write a book even though people kept asking us to.

00:05:17:14 - 00:05:19:11 Because our frontal lobes weren’t developed.

00:05:19:11 - 00:05:22:08 It’s as simple as that.

00:05:22:08 - 00:05:25:08 I’m just so glad we said no.

00:05:25:11 - 00:05:28:23 But we are writers fundamentally, and writers write books

00:05:28:23 - 00:05:34:08 No? So maybe resisting it was futile and maybe the universe intervened

00:05:34:08 - 00:05:39:02 because we met an agent on a train and we’ve met agents before.

00:05:39:04 - 00:05:44:04 But for some reason, being trapped on the train with this – for scene setting,

00:05:44:10 - 00:05:45:08 The train was…

00:05:45:08 - 00:05:48:05 Yeah, trapped isn’t the right word.

00:05:48:05 - 00:05:50:17 Makes it sound like she was like –

00:05:50:17 - 00:05:52:10 Hunting us down.

00:05:52:10 - 00:05:54:22 It was the beginning of 2020.

00:05:54:22 - 00:05:58:06 Like before all the – It was March 2020.

00:05:58:12 - 00:06:01:23 It was March 2020. It was March 2020.

00:06:01:23 - 00:06:06:10 It was the beginning of March. Me and Zarina we’re going to a conference in Dortmund.

00:06:06:12 - 00:06:08:07 But the whole thing about this

00:06:08:07 - 00:06:10:17 conference was like they didn’t want anyone to fly in.

00:06:10:17 - 00:06:13:23 So they said, We’ll pay for train tickets for everyone and me and Zarina

00:06:13:23 - 00:06:16:08 we’re like, oh my God, that sounds so fun. We love trains.

00:06:16:08 - 00:06:21:03 Be so fun to go on a train all across Europe on the train to Dortmund,

00:06:21:05 - 00:06:25:10 because with it being the beginning of March 2020 and, you know,

00:06:25:12 - 00:06:29:21 Coronavirus, it wasn’t even COVID then, it was Coronavirus.

00:06:29:23 - 00:06:34:10 And there was a woman sat next to us and she was coughing so much

00:06:34:10 - 00:06:37:11 and she had to like – we were giving each other side eyes.

00:06:37:11 - 00:06:38:10 It was really bad.

00:06:38:10 - 00:06:42:16 And she was like, no, don’t worry, girls, I’ve got lung issues.

00:06:42:16 - 00:06:43:09 I’ve always had them.

00:06:43:09 - 00:06:44:13 It’s genetic or something.

00:06:44:13 - 00:06:46:12 And we felt really bad about ourselves.

00:06:46:12 - 00:06:49:07 So we were just like, okay, sorry,

00:06:49:07 - 00:06:52:19 But we were chatting on the train for so long and obviously in English

00:06:52:21 - 00:06:55:19 that the person on the table next to us was like,

00:06:55:19 - 00:06:59:01 Are you by any chance going to this conference in Dortmund?

00:06:59:01 - 00:07:01:16 And we were like, oh my God, yes we are.

00:07:01:16 - 00:07:03:08 And she said, What do you do?

00:07:03:08 - 00:07:05:24 And we said, What do you do? And we all got to know each other.

00:07:05:24 - 00:07:09:09 And she turns out it was Milly Reilly who is an agent.

00:07:09:09 - 00:07:12:07 Over the course of the conference, we hung out a few times

00:07:12:07 - 00:07:14:04 and then on the way back,

00:07:14:04 - 00:07:17:16 she sort of said to us, Well, if you’re ever thinking about

00:07:17:16 - 00:07:19:18 writing a book like, I don’t want to push you into it

00:07:19:18 - 00:07:21:00 But if it’s ever something like,

00:07:21:00 - 00:07:25:02 you know, comes up for you, feels right, here’s my details.

00:07:25:04 - 00:07:31:08 And we were like, okay, obviously Then the world closes down.

00:07:31:10 - 00:07:34:14 We spend 2020 writing more than we’ve ever written.

00:07:34:14 - 00:07:37:22 Our audience absolutely fucking spiked our patrons spiked us all.

00:07:37:22 - 00:07:41:16 It was a really strange time for everyone, but for us professionally.

00:07:41:16 - 00:07:45:11 It was like, yeah??? wa??? I think our writing improved

00:07:45:11 - 00:07:50:05 because we were able to focus on it more, and towards the end of that year

00:07:50:07 - 00:07:53:01 we got in touch with Milly to say

00:07:53:01 - 00:07:56:17 we’ve had an idea for a book and we’re not going to talk

00:07:56:17 - 00:08:00:14 too much in detail about what that book is here

00:08:00:14 - 00:08:03:23 because we can’t legally,

00:08:03:23 - 00:08:06:23 I don’t know, we just can’t talk about it.

00:08:06:24 - 00:08:10:24 We can say it’s about art, it’s a book about art

00:08:11:01 - 00:08:12:02 and it’s about artists, and

00:08:12:02 - 00:08:16:02 it’s about like what it takes to keep art in your life

00:08:16:06 - 00:08:19:23 when it’s so difficult to do that given the world that we live in.

00:08:20:04 - 00:08:20:21 Dot, dot, dot.

00:08:20:21 - 00:08:23:21 Anyway, we had an idea for a book

00:08:23:22 - 00:08:27:07 and we had a meeting with Milly and she was like, okay, well,

00:08:27:09 - 00:08:28:08 this is what we need to do.

00:08:28:08 - 00:08:30:24 Then I’ll be your agent.

00:08:30:24 - 00:08:33:18 And we were like, Cool, that’s great, because obviously

00:08:33:18 - 00:08:37:19 Divine intervention brought us together on that train.

00:08:37:21 - 00:08:40:21 And then she said,

00:08:40:21 - 00:08:43:08 I need you to write a book proposal.

00:08:43:08 - 00:08:45:19 So a book proposal, as she explained it to us

00:08:45:19 - 00:08:50:09 and for nonfiction books in particular

00:08:50:11 - 00:08:54:08 is usually two or three chapters, sample chapters of the book

00:08:54:10 - 00:08:57:21 with a chapter outline about what the rest of the book is going to be like,

00:08:57:23 - 00:09:00:22 including maybe an introduction to like who you are

00:09:00:22 - 00:09:03:21 and why you’re the best person to write this book.

00:09:03:21 - 00:09:08:16 And then the book proposal would end with like, what else is in the market

00:09:08:16 - 00:09:12:19 That is kind of similar to the thing that you want to write.

00:09:12:21 - 00:09:17:02 And the reason for that is so that when we move to the next stage

00:09:17:02 - 00:09:22:18 and the agent has shown the proposal to the publishers,

00:09:22:20 - 00:09:26:08 they can hopefully see that it’s like a marketable thing

00:09:26:08 - 00:09:29:21 and that they’ll make money on it because essentially, like this

00:09:29:21 - 00:09:33:09 is all weirdly about money in a way that we’re not really that used to like.

00:09:33:15 - 00:09:37:18 It kind of has to have some commercial viability

00:09:37:20 - 00:09:40:04 in order for the publishers to invest in it.

00:09:40:04 - 00:09:41:24 Fair enough. Fine.

00:09:41:24 - 00:09:45:00 Because I think at least on like the book purchaser’s end

00:09:45:00 - 00:09:48:00 you think, is this interesting?

00:09:48:01 - 00:09:51:15 Like as the thing for me to buy, is this something I want to spend

00:09:51:15 - 00:09:53:05 my Sundays reading, you know?

00:09:53:05 - 00:09:58:06 Yeah, But like you, you consider it on its own terms as like a finished product.

00:09:58:08 - 00:10:01:02 But if you’re making a book, you’ve got to think about it

00:10:01:02 - 00:10:04:03 as a product, as a thing.

00:10:04:03 - 00:10:05:22 You’ve got to zoom out and be like, This is the product.

00:10:05:22 - 00:10:07:17 What’s going to make this person buy it?

00:10:07:17 - 00:10:08:10 What’s going to make

00:10:08:10 - 00:10:12:24 you believe that that person who’s written that book is worth listening to?

00:10:13:01 - 00:10:15:21 Yes, because

00:10:15:21 - 00:10:20:15 If I pay the the writer to create it, and then I pay for it all to be printed,

00:10:20:15 - 00:10:24:10 then I need to make my money back on this fucking book. Again,

00:10:24:12 - 00:10:26:17 sort of fair enough.

00:10:26:19 - 00:10:28:15 The only issue is

00:10:28:15 - 00:10:33:24 We had that meeting in December 2020 and then January 2021,

00:10:34:02 - 00:10:37:11 I got sick with COVID and then it became Long COVID.

00:10:37:11 - 00:10:42:09 And basically, I forgot we’d even had the meeting

00:10:42:13 - 00:10:45:20 My brain was like on the moon.

00:10:45:22 - 00:10:48:06 And I didn’t have the energy and I was in too much pain

00:10:48:06 - 00:10:51:02 and all the rest of it. We’ve gone over this.

00:10:51:02 - 00:10:52:20 I’m sick now, I’m still sick.

00:10:52:20 - 00:10:54:21 It’s been almost three years. Isn’t that crazy?

00:10:54:21 - 00:10:58:08 We didn’t actually write the proposal until.

00:10:58:08 - 00:11:01:02 2022, I think.

00:11:01:02 - 00:11:04:04 Until like, yeah, a year and a half after.

00:11:04:04 - 00:11:06:21 That’s crazy, isn’t it? We kind of – I think as well –

00:11:06:21 - 00:11:11:22 You were sick in 2021 and it took us ages to like recalibrate

00:11:11:22 - 00:11:17:12 and figure out how we could go about still doing things with you being sick,

00:11:17:14 - 00:11:23:01 like figuring out what that meant for collaboration.

00:11:23:03 - 00:11:26:03 Yeah, but we wrote in so many different directions to figure out

00:11:26:03 - 00:11:29:23 what that tone of the book would be.

00:11:29:24 - 00:11:32:02 Because even though we knew what the idea was,

00:11:32:02 - 00:11:33:03 It was like broad strokes.

00:11:33:03 - 00:11:36:01 We didn’t know what it would actually sound like, what it should on

00:11:36:01 - 00:11:39:24 a word by word sentence level, what that should feel like.

00:11:40:01 - 00:11:42:21 And it was it was, yeah, a year and a half difference.

00:11:42:21 - 00:11:44:07 And I just want to stress,

00:11:44:07 - 00:11:48:11 like our agent Milly was not harassing us to do anything.

00:11:48:13 - 00:11:50:05 She was very supportive and she was just like,

00:11:50:05 - 00:11:53:04 I’m I’m not going to drop you just because you can’t do it right now.

00:11:53:04 - 00:11:56:23 Like, this will happen when it happens. And that was really good

00:11:57:00 - 00:12:00:10 because I think there’s a sense in creative industry shit

00:12:00:10 - 00:12:04:02 that like an opportunity is only there for like a very brief moment.

00:12:04:02 - 00:12:07:17 You have to grab onto it, otherwise, like you’re never going to get it again.

00:12:07:19 - 00:12:11:06 So it’s nice when people within the industry stop that

00:12:11:06 - 00:12:14:10 temporary-ness from

00:12:14:16 - 00:12:18:07 becoming an imposition on people.

00:12:18:09 - 00:12:21:21 But yeah, as Zarina said, like we really took a while

00:12:21:21 - 00:12:24:00 when it did come to writing the sample chapters

00:12:24:00 - 00:12:27:05 for the book proposal to figure out like what our tone was going to be

00:12:27:06 - 00:12:28:06 because yes, like up

00:12:28:06 - 00:12:31:17 until that point we had about seven years of writing practice in the bag.

00:12:31:17 - 00:12:35:17 But a lot of that practice has been done individually.

00:12:35:18 - 00:12:39:03 Like we take turns writing texts on the white pube,

00:12:39:03 - 00:12:42:17 and sometimes those are short reviews,

00:12:42:17 - 00:12:45:17 sometimes they are longer essays.

00:12:45:17 - 00:12:48:10 This book is actually

00:12:48:10 - 00:12:50:22 our collaborative voice together,

00:12:50:22 - 00:12:55:12 like the Ultimate White Pube, and it’s actually

00:12:55:14 - 00:12:58:14 like a meld of fiction and nonfiction.

00:12:58:17 - 00:13:02:13 So we had to figure out what the fuck that meant, like in practice.

00:13:02:13 - 00:13:03:13 And aesthetically.

00:13:03:13 - 00:13:06:24 It was like a whole new language, like before

00:13:06:24 - 00:13:10:07 2022, Like before we wrote the book, you sounded like you.

00:13:10:12 - 00:13:11:23 I sounded like me.

00:13:11:23 - 00:13:13:06 And it’s like those two voices.

00:13:13:06 - 00:13:15:22 But we had to come together and figure out not just like how

00:13:15:22 - 00:13:19:02 to write collaboratively, but like how to write collaboratively

00:13:19:06 - 00:13:23:18 in a completely new register that we’d never spoken in or written in before.

00:13:23:19 - 00:13:26:19 You know, even logistically, it’s not like we’re sat typing

00:13:26:19 - 00:13:27:18 while we’re holding hands.

00:13:27:18 - 00:13:29:12 Like, what do we do?

00:13:29:12 - 00:13:31:24 Do I write, then pass the text to you

00:13:31:24 - 00:13:34:22 and then you edit it? What are we going to do?

00:13:34:22 - 00:13:37:11 Hello, It’s Gab from the editing booth.

00:13:37:11 - 00:13:41:02 I just wanted to pop in very quickly because we actually only explained what

00:13:41:02 - 00:13:44:13 happened in the nonfiction side of things when it comes to publishing books.

00:13:44:13 - 00:13:48:06 And I know that a lot of our readers might not know anything about this

00:13:48:06 - 00:13:52:21 process, and I think the fiction side is like kind of fascinating from.

00:13:52:21 - 00:13:55:21 A class analysis standpoint.

00:13:55:24 - 00:13:59:13 Just very quickly, if you’re doing fiction,

00:13:59:13 - 00:14:03:09 none of this book proposal stuff is like relevant.

00:14:03:11 - 00:14:06:18 What happens is that you’re expected to just write the whole book

00:14:06:18 - 00:14:09:19 on your own time, and then with the help of an agent,

00:14:09:19 - 00:14:12:13 you would try and shop that to different publishers.

00:14:12:13 - 00:14:16:02 I suppose it’s because, like nonfiction is less of a risk.

00:14:16:02 - 00:14:19:14 Like it’s easier to set out exactly what’s going to happen across the book.

00:14:19:14 - 00:14:23:19 And therefore it’s not that much of a surprise to publishers in a way

00:14:23:19 - 00:14:30:01 that fiction definitely can be because it’s speculative and it’s bizarre.

00:14:30:03 - 00:14:32:03 But it means that, like

00:14:32:03 - 00:14:36:11 fiction, writers just have to do it on their own time, like I said.

00:14:36:11 - 00:14:40:03 And what that means is like, unless you’ve got the money to just

00:14:40:07 - 00:14:46:00 be at home and get this book out, your system, then fiction writers

00:14:46:02 - 00:14:48:24 from working class backgrounds are just going to work.

00:14:48:24 - 00:14:49:14 Trying to squeeze it

00:14:49:14 - 00:14:53:19 in, sometimes at work or just doing it of an evening on a weekend,

00:14:53:21 - 00:14:57:04 which means it’s like a much slower process

00:14:57:04 - 00:15:03:10 and probably a much more difficult process because not everyone’s got the mental

00:15:03:12 - 00:15:07:06 organizational capacity to like hold real life thoughts

00:15:07:06 - 00:15:10:24 and creative thoughts in their head at the same time, if that makes any sense.

00:15:11:01 - 00:15:16:02 It also it kind of clarifies to me why there are so many middle class writers

00:15:16:04 - 00:15:21:02 or voices being published who I don’t feel like I can necessarily relate to.

00:15:21:08 - 00:15:22:17 Like, okay, yeah,

00:15:22:17 - 00:15:26:13 maybe I agree with what you say and maybe I enjoy how you say it, but

00:15:26:15 - 00:15:30:05 Like sometimes it’s just there’s just this disconnect and I suppose

00:15:30:05 - 00:15:33:13 like class is almost always the answer.

00:15:33:15 - 00:15:37:07 And I suppose I also bring this up because I think it’s important to state

00:15:37:07 - 00:15:43:00 explicitly that going the nonfiction route is the only way we could have afforded

00:15:43:02 - 00:15:47:10 to write a book and to produce a book like how else would we have done it?

00:15:47:12 - 00:15:51:04 we wouldn’t have been able to buy ourselves the time,

00:15:51:06 - 00:15:55:19 which is like pure gold in terms of creativity.

00:15:55:21 - 00:15:58:20 Okay, back to the episode.

00:15:58:20 - 00:16:03:20 So Challenge, done. figured it out. we gave the proposal to Milly.

00:16:03:22 - 00:16:07:03 She was like really enthusiastic about it, which was exciting.

00:16:07:05 - 00:16:10:05 And then she was like, Okay, you leave it with me.

00:16:10:06 - 00:16:13:06 I’m going to take it to publishers and I’m going to call up everyone I know

00:16:13:11 - 00:16:17:08 and like, Let’s fucking go.

00:16:17:10 - 00:16:18:10 We were like, what’s happening!

00:16:18:10 - 00:16:22:00 And I remember it was like just going into the summer

00:16:22:02 - 00:16:24:21 and apparently in publishing world, like everyone

00:16:24:21 - 00:16:28:01 is really hard line about taking the summer off.

00:16:28:03 - 00:16:30:14 So there was a bit of urgency, like, okay

00:16:30:14 - 00:16:33:09 let’s get it in before everyone goes on holiday.

00:16:33:09 - 00:16:35:19 So we were like, my God, what if everyone’s already gone?

00:16:35:19 - 00:16:39:16 But it’s worth saying that, like, Milly’s not just like a general agent,

00:16:39:16 - 00:16:41:10 she’s a literary agent.

00:16:41:10 - 00:16:44:10 So she’s been doing her job for years.

00:16:44:10 - 00:16:48:19 Her job basically involves being an author’s

00:16:48:19 - 00:16:52:19 representative to the publishers, and it’s quite nice to have someone

00:16:52:19 - 00:16:55:22 if you’re like a a writer, you’re used to freelancing,

00:16:56:01 - 00:16:59:08 you’re used to kind of being like a lone Ranger cowboy gunslinger

00:16:59:10 - 00:17:02:23 in the wild, wild west of self-employed men.

00:17:03:00 - 00:17:06:10 It’s quite nice to have someone there to represent your interest.

00:17:06:10 - 00:17:07:05 Who’s on your team?

00:17:07:05 - 00:17:11:17 Who’s that like, Fight for you and be your representative in

00:17:11:19 - 00:17:13:05 negotiations and stuff like that.

00:17:13:05 - 00:17:15:00 So her job is to go to publishers.

00:17:15:00 - 00:17:18:14 She’s got relationships with publishers and like the editors that work

00:17:18:14 - 00:17:23:07 at these publishing houses, they ask her what her authors are up to.

00:17:23:10 - 00:17:27:12 What she explained to us was that these publishing houses

00:17:27:12 - 00:17:29:13 will have you know, I don’t know if it’s like a weekly meeting

00:17:29:13 - 00:17:31:10 or fortnightly meeting, you know, whatever it is.

00:17:31:10 - 00:17:34:18 And all the editors will sit around the table.

00:17:34:20 - 00:17:37:20 And if that editor

00:17:37:23 - 00:17:40:14 has been approached by someone like Milly

00:17:40:14 - 00:17:44:04 with a book proposal and they want it,

00:17:44:06 - 00:17:47:13 they have these regular meetings where they say, I’ve got a book.

00:17:47:13 - 00:17:50:02 Here’s this book on the table here’s this book proposal.

00:17:50:02 - 00:17:52:20 I think we should buy it like as a company.

00:17:52:20 - 00:17:55:00 I think this is worth the investment.

00:17:55:00 - 00:17:55:15 Here’s why.

00:17:55:15 - 00:18:00:20 And essentially, like your agent has to make the publisher want to fight for it.

00:18:01:01 - 00:18:03:24 Like and the book proposal has to make them want to fight for it.

00:18:03:24 - 00:18:06:16 It has to be like so good that they’re like,

00:18:06:16 - 00:18:08:11 we have to, we have to, we have to

00:18:08:11 - 00:18:14:02 And I suppose that’s very similar to like a lot of arts funding processes as well.

00:18:14:04 - 00:18:18:14 But that scared me as much as it excited me because

00:18:18:16 - 00:18:21:00 Our book is so weird

00:18:21:00 - 00:18:24:10 As I said, it’s a mix of fiction and nonfiction

00:18:24:12 - 00:18:27:01 to the point where we don’t even know where it’s going to be in the shop

00:18:27:01 - 00:18:30:18 when it finally comes out, like will it be on the fiction section or non fiction?

00:18:30:20 - 00:18:31:19 We don’t know.

00:18:31:19 - 00:18:35:10 How do we explain that and how do we sell that to people we’ve not met?

00:18:35:12 - 00:18:39:02 We didn’t know when we were shopping it around like it was even more uncertain

00:18:39:02 - 00:18:43:21 and weird and bizarre when we sent it out as a proposal.

00:18:43:21 - 00:18:48:01 But like when it was a proposal, it was theoretical and

00:18:48:03 - 00:18:53:03 the editor would have to kind of see potential in it because it was abstract.

00:18:53:03 - 00:18:54:14 It didn’t exist yet.

00:18:54:14 - 00:18:57:12 Like it was even more of a gamble.

00:18:57:12 - 00:19:01:24 And that is completely compounded by the fact that like who the fuck are the white pube?

00:19:02:01 - 00:19:02:16

00:19:02:16 - 00:19:04:14 What the fuck is the white pube?

00:19:04:14 - 00:19:08:07 Like, if you’re listening to this podcast, you probably have at least

00:19:08:07 - 00:19:12:11 15, 20 minutes of knowledge of who we are, what we do.

00:19:12:13 - 00:19:15:11 But one, we’ve got a weird name that

00:19:15:11 - 00:19:18:09 Not many people outside of art will ever understand

00:19:18:09 - 00:19:21:20 because it’s a reference to the White cube, blah, blah, blah.

00:19:21:22 - 00:19:25:04 And, it says the word pube in the title,

00:19:25:04 - 00:19:28:09 and that’s not very professional, blah, blah, who cares?

00:19:28:11 - 00:19:32:16 And how marketable or commercial is a book with the word pube on the front of it.

00:19:32:19 - 00:19:35:19 Like these are actual issues that for us

00:19:35:19 - 00:19:39:08 have been funny jokes up until now but like could hinder our career.

00:19:39:10 - 00:19:41:22 It’s also not a human name.

00:19:41:22 - 00:19:43:20 Like it’s not like so and so, so and so.

00:19:43:20 - 00:19:48:18 We favor people like faces and like human stories and names.

00:19:48:18 - 00:19:50:01 It’s like a collective name.

00:19:50:01 - 00:19:54:01 Yeah. Unpacking it like this,

00:19:54:01 - 00:19:56:13 I’m like, Wow, how do we even have jobs?

00:19:56:13 - 00:19:57:19 How do we even have jobs?

00:19:57:19 - 00:20:01:18 The good thing is that that process was really fast,

00:20:01:23 - 00:20:07:16 maybe like three weeks long of, okay, her sending out the proposals and then

00:20:07:16 - 00:20:11:21 waiting to hear back about the results of those internal meetings, essentially.

00:20:11:23 - 00:20:14:16 And when it came down to it

00:20:14:16 - 00:20:17:08 we had four offers

00:20:17:08 - 00:20:18:18 Yeah, it was four

00:20:18:18 - 00:20:24:10 And then that was when things got really like X Factor ish.

00:20:24:12 - 00:20:27:12 So we had to meet up in London where we were going to meet

00:20:27:12 - 00:20:29:16 these publishers face to face.

00:20:29:16 - 00:20:34:18 And the way our literary agent explained it to us is like,

00:20:34:20 - 00:20:37:08 it’s not even about selling ourselves in that meeting,

00:20:37:08 - 00:20:39:14 because the book proposal has done the work.

00:20:39:14 - 00:20:44:04 It’s about us trying to find which publisher we think we would work

00:20:44:04 - 00:20:50:04 best with and which publisher we think would result in the best book.

00:20:50:05 - 00:20:52:09 What’s the editorial vision for the book?

00:20:52:09 - 00:20:53:19 You know, asking them there and then,

00:20:53:19 - 00:20:57:17 okay, you’ve read the book proposal, like how would you make that better?

00:20:57:19 - 00:21:02:04 And that is when things kind of clicked for me, like, what is an editor?

00:21:02:04 - 00:21:04:06 Because

00:21:04:08 - 00:21:06:00 I think it’s just a critic.

00:21:06:00 - 00:21:10:10 I think critics and editors are almost exactly the same people.

00:21:10:12 - 00:21:15:12 And it was nice to be sat with, you know, us two as critics

00:21:15:14 - 00:21:19:03 opposite another critic and have critical conversations about this

00:21:19:03 - 00:21:22:07 like proposal for something that hasn’t materialized yet

00:21:22:07 - 00:21:25:17 because

00:21:25:19 - 00:21:28:18 we were hearing other people’s visions

00:21:28:18 - 00:21:33:18 for how that potential could be, you know, shifted or redirected

00:21:33:18 - 00:21:35:09 or maybe it could be refined in

00:21:35:09 - 00:21:38:12 certain ways to make certain different types of books.

00:21:38:12 - 00:21:42:06 And like everyone had very different end results,

00:21:42:06 - 00:21:46:00 like all four publishers were talking about the book completely differently.

00:21:46:02 - 00:21:49:07 And they had different questions for us

00:21:49:07 - 00:21:53:15 that they wanted to like – because we sent them the same proposal.

00:21:53:20 - 00:21:56:01 They all came back to us with different questions about like, Well,

00:21:56:01 - 00:21:58:15 have you have you thought about this? Have you figured that out?

00:21:58:15 - 00:22:00:24 Because it wasn’t like they received the proposal

00:22:00:24 - 00:22:03:14 and they were like, Yeah, we want that version of the book.

00:22:03:14 - 00:22:06:05 They saw it as like a TBC.

00:22:06:05 - 00:22:07:18 Yeah, I think. Yeah, yeah.

00:22:07:18 - 00:22:13:11 I really appreciated that because like we don’t often get to be in that position

00:22:13:11 - 00:22:16:12 because we are critiquing other people’s works.

00:22:16:16 - 00:22:18:12 Why is there a little thumb on the screen?

00:22:18:12 - 00:22:27:02 Zoom likes what I said.

00:22:27:04 - 00:22:30:15 God. I don’t know if that’s going to record, if you’re listening to the podcast,

00:22:30:15 - 00:22:34:16 as I was speaking, then a little thumb came up on the Zoom screen,

00:22:34:18 - 00:22:37:00 which we’re not alone.

00:22:37:00 - 00:22:38:10 Erm anyway.

00:22:38:10 - 00:22:42:08 That’s different to the raised thumb reaction.

00:22:42:10 - 00:22:44:11 Well, all I was trying to say before

00:22:44:11 - 00:22:48:21 aliens and the FBI during the call is that like

00:22:48:23 - 00:22:52:22 we are so used to being in a position of critiquing other people’s works

00:22:52:24 - 00:22:56:05 and we don’t often get people critiquing our writing.

00:22:56:11 - 00:22:58:15 Like sometimes people are like,

00:22:58:15 - 00:23:00:08 you’re a fucking idiot.

00:23:00:08 - 00:23:02:00 Or I think what you said is wrong.

00:23:02:00 - 00:23:06:07 But people don’t often talk about our writing on like a word to word level.

00:23:06:10 - 00:23:10:05 It made me really excited to work with an editor because someone

00:23:10:05 - 00:23:11:13 was finally going to do that for us.

00:23:11:13 - 00:23:16:02 And I thought, no matter what happens, like the effect of criticism

00:23:16:08 - 00:23:17:16 coming back to us

00:23:17:16 - 00:23:21:10 is going to be so positive, like our writing is going to develop.

00:23:21:14 - 00:23:25:10 so we need to pick a writer and so we need to pick an editor who

00:23:25:10 - 00:23:29:02 is going to make us like our best selves, however fucking cheesy that is.

00:23:29:05 - 00:23:32:14 I’ve been feeling this sense lately that, you know, I started my B.A.,

00:23:32:14 - 00:23:33:21 we started our B.A.

00:23:33:21 - 00:23:36:20 in 2013 and we left in 2016.

00:23:36:20 - 00:23:39:17 So it’s nearly ten years since we did a B.A.,

00:23:39:17 - 00:23:42:17 but it’s actually ten years already since we started one.

00:23:42:20 - 00:23:45:00 And I’m like, do I want to go back to university?

00:23:45:00 - 00:23:48:11 Like, if I went back to university, what would I do?

00:23:48:13 - 00:23:52:06 Is now the worst time ever to go because of like how badly

00:23:52:08 - 00:23:54:02 university staff are getting treated?

00:23:54:02 - 00:23:57:21 And I can’t just write forever without ever having that writing develop

00:23:57:21 - 00:24:00:21 like I’m sure it’s going to develop a bit because I’m just doing it a lot.

00:24:00:21 - 00:24:04:08 But I would love mentorship

00:24:04:10 - 00:24:09:08 or that like specific detail on the words that I choose to put in the order.

00:24:09:08 - 00:24:13:17 I choose to put them in, in the same way that a university

00:24:13:17 - 00:24:17:11 tutor in an art school might talk about the actual brush strokes on a picture.

00:24:17:13 - 00:24:22:05 And like, in a sense, maybe I don’t need to go to university anymore

00:24:22:05 - 00:24:28:05 because we’ve now had that experience with an editor over the past 12 months.

00:24:28:07 - 00:24:30:09 That is

00:24:30:09 - 00:24:32:19 really interesting.

00:24:32:19 - 00:24:37:03 That is really interesting because I agree and disagree.

00:24:37:05 - 00:24:39:08 I think I feel less

00:24:39:08 - 00:24:43:02 and less like I will ever want to do an MA – I never want to do an MA.

00:24:43:02 - 00:24:43:18 I won’t to do an MA

00:24:43:18 - 00:24:47:11 even less now than I did like five years ago.

00:24:47:13 - 00:24:50:00 I feel like I’ve gone the other direction.

00:24:50:00 - 00:24:51:10 I just want to be left alone.

00:24:51:10 - 00:24:55:15 I don’t want to think about how anyone might read it.

00:24:55:15 - 00:24:58:13 Over the past year, we’ve been speaking to artists

00:24:58:13 - 00:25:03:01 in specific circumstances that may or may not become apparent and,

00:25:03:03 - 00:25:06:09 you know, I think as I speak to more and more artists,

00:25:06:09 - 00:25:10:15 I feel like more and more justified and affirmed in the fact that, like,

00:25:10:17 - 00:25:13:21 really, I just want to get on with things and I don’t want to think

00:25:13:21 - 00:25:19:20 about the audience and how like a reader might end up consuming that

00:25:19:22 - 00:25:22:14 consuming and reading the text that’s nice.

00:25:22:14 - 00:25:23:08 Such a privilege.

00:25:23:08 - 00:25:24:00 What an honour

00:25:24:00 - 00:25:26:13 To have your work looked at in that way.

00:25:26:13 - 00:25:31:01 But like, it’s also none of my business how it’s like

00:25:31:03 - 00:25:32:09 read through and received.

00:25:32:09 - 00:25:35:03 You know, I think I just want to be like, left my own devices.

00:25:35:03 - 00:25:39:20 I want to go to a shed and like, chisel away at, like an enormous sculpture

00:25:39:22 - 00:25:42:15 that’s like actually a text and like, just get on with things

00:25:42:15 - 00:25:46:04 and figure things out for myself because inputting – I just kind of want

00:25:46:04 - 00:25:49:08 hands off to like, yeah, see what happens.

00:25:49:08 - 00:25:52:23 But to return to that, I was going to say I think the reason it feels like

00:25:52:23 - 00:25:57:18 an editor is like a window open is because

00:25:57:20 - 00:26:01:06 the reader is only ever

00:26:01:06 - 00:26:04:20 really able to provide comment,

00:26:04:22 - 00:26:08:03 not critique and not really feedback.

00:26:08:05 - 00:26:10:23 I think maybe throughout history

00:26:10:23 - 00:26:14:10 an editor has been like a stronger presence.

00:26:14:10 - 00:26:18:00 You know, like if you’re a journalist, you have a relationship.

00:26:18:02 - 00:26:21:00 In the past, you’d have a relationship with an editor and they’d go through –

00:26:21:00 - 00:26:25:09 you’d be mates and you’d like go down Fleet Street to like a pub,

00:26:25:11 - 00:26:25:20 knock

00:26:25:20 - 00:26:28:20 back a couple whiskeys and shoot up a cigar

00:26:28:20 - 00:26:33:04 and like you’d go through the manuscript and – Shoot up a cigar?

00:26:33:06 - 00:26:35:02 Because, you know, you light a cigar with like those.

00:26:35:02 - 00:26:38:21 Enormous flamethrowers.

00:26:38:23 - 00:26:40:17 Like you’d, you’d,

00:26:40:17 - 00:26:43:22 you’d set fire to the enormous burning bushel of the cigar

00:26:44:01 - 00:26:46:23 and you go through the manuscript together.

00:26:46:23 - 00:26:48:09 And it would be a collaborative process.

00:26:48:09 - 00:26:53:01 The editor was like a more empowered force through the history of publishing.

00:26:53:01 - 00:26:56:01 And now, at least for a critic, or a journalist

00:26:56:05 - 00:27:00:01 a writer that’s writing short form,

00:27:00:03 - 00:27:03:00 magazine, public print is dying.

00:27:03:00 - 00:27:06:12 Magazine structures are like slowly becoming impoverished, editors

00:27:06:14 - 00:27:10:12 are having to do more work, like editorially commissioning.

00:27:10:14 - 00:27:13:08 They have less time to spend going through an actual article

00:27:13:08 - 00:27:16:08 like and giving direct, detailed feedback for a writer.

00:27:16:14 - 00:27:18:14 And I think often

00:27:18:16 - 00:27:19:05 because that

00:27:19:05 - 00:27:23:01 is like a structure that’s being impoverished by funding cuts

00:27:23:01 - 00:27:26:21 and like lack of actual capital, like editors

00:27:26:23 - 00:27:29:19 through those magazine structures, they’re being paid less and less.

00:27:29:19 - 00:27:31:01 They’re not actually as good.

00:27:31:01 - 00:27:35:07 A lot of people that freelance don’t have like

00:27:35:09 - 00:27:37:04 a prolonged relationship

00:27:37:04 - 00:27:40:04 with an editor where they’re pitching over and over again to the same people

00:27:40:10 - 00:27:43:10 and not getting like that rapport, that relationship

00:27:43:15 - 00:27:45:05 and that back and forth

00:27:45:05 - 00:27:47:01 where you know each other and you have like a sense

00:27:47:01 - 00:27:51:10 of shared sensibility around what you want to put out.

00:27:51:12 - 00:27:54:19 We are independent as well, like we edit each other.

00:27:54:21 - 00:27:57:21 So we have got that long term rapport and relationship.

00:27:58:00 - 00:28:00:11 But also it’s like,

00:28:00:11 - 00:28:03:22 I don’t know, I feel like we were also enablers for each other,

00:28:03:24 - 00:28:09:23 like we’re not able to provide an objective dramaturgical analysis

00:28:09:23 - 00:28:13:12 point of view because we’re like too within the pocket of each other.

00:28:13:14 - 00:28:16:15 To be able to step out and be like, You need to think about this.

00:28:16:15 - 00:28:19:14 You think about that. We can do it sometimes, but not all the time.

00:28:19:14 - 00:28:24:11 And so it’s just like it’s a bit of like a I dunno,

00:28:24:13 - 00:28:26:08 I feel like the 21st century,

00:28:26:08 - 00:28:30:11 the advent of the internet has really changed the game for writers.

00:28:30:12 - 00:28:34:05 And I say this with a kind of wink and a nudge because we’re 29,

00:28:34:05 - 00:28:37:18 what do we know about what publishing was like in the seventies?

00:28:37:20 - 00:28:42:01 It just feels like a slightly different game to the game.

00:28:42:03 - 00:28:45:05 It sounds like it was, however, long ago.

00:28:45:05 - 00:28:48:19 In the past, but publishing a book is print.

00:28:48:19 - 00:28:52:16 It’s a formalized structure that hasn’t been impoverished in the same way that,

00:28:52:16 - 00:28:58:07 writing for a magazine has with the move to online. Books haven’t moved online,

00:28:58:09 - 00:29:02:11 That editorial workforce is still like –

00:29:02:13 - 00:29:04:10 And I think essentially when it came

00:29:04:10 - 00:29:09:15 to picking an editor and a publisher through those four meetings, we went

00:29:09:15 - 00:29:14:12 with the people who had the most critique for us and like, yeah, the critique

00:29:14:16 - 00:29:19:05 that was most interesting and like, wait, we haven’t thought about that.

00:29:19:07 - 00:29:24:05 And, and I think we can talk about this because I think it’s an interesting

00:29:24:06 - 00:29:29:00 point and explanation as to why we chose these people.

00:29:29:00 - 00:29:33:18 And we can’t say who they are, but it’s a really good publisher.

00:29:33:20 - 00:29:36:06 We’ll reveal all of that soon.

00:29:36:06 - 00:29:40:03 And essentially, like when we’d written the book proposal,

00:29:40:05 - 00:29:45:00 we’d begun with this big introduction about who the White Pube is and what we do

00:29:45:00 - 00:29:46:08 and what we care about,

00:29:46:08 - 00:29:50:09 and you know how close we are to our readers and all that shit.

00:29:50:09 - 00:29:52:04 And, you know, our interest in

00:29:52:04 - 00:29:55:23 like challenging institutional ways of operating.

00:29:56:00 - 00:29:59:16 And then we’d included those sample chapters that we described earlier

00:29:59:16 - 00:30:00:14 where we were trying to figure out

00:30:00:14 - 00:30:07:09 how to like, meld our voice and find some footing within a semi-fictional tone.

00:30:07:11 - 00:30:11:15 And when we sat in this room with this particular publisher

00:30:11:15 - 00:30:15:16 who we ended up going with she said to us, like

00:30:15:18 - 00:30:19:12 her favorite part of our book proposal wasn’t the sample chapters,

00:30:19:14 - 00:30:22:21 but it was the way we’d written the introduction

00:30:22:23 - 00:30:27:21 and as soon as she said it and she said, You know, I’d like you to write the book

00:30:27:21 - 00:30:31:15 in that voice, in your own voice, rather than trying

00:30:31:15 - 00:30:35:11 to, like, put on a front and like a pretense.

00:30:35:11 - 00:30:38:13 Like she was basically saying, I don’t want you to go.

00:30:38:14 - 00:30:39:24 I’m writing a book.

00:30:39:24 - 00:30:41:24 She was like, I just want you to speak.

00:30:41:24 - 00:30:46:13 And that felt so affirming and so right.

00:30:46:13 - 00:30:49:00 It was like, okay, this is actually a good fit.

00:30:49:00 - 00:30:52:09 This suits us because you’re basically telling us to be ourselves,

00:30:52:11 - 00:30:56:12 which is a lot easier than telling us to write a book.

00:30:56:14 - 00:30:56:22 But it’s

00:30:56:22 - 00:31:00:17 also like we we are within the pocket of each other.

00:31:00:18 - 00:31:02:20 Like that closed logic, right?

00:31:02:20 - 00:31:07:05 We’re like collaboration, but two different people, but like collaborating.

00:31:07:05 - 00:31:10:18 We can’t really see outside of what we’re making between us.

00:31:10:18 - 00:31:14:16 Too well, you know, like it’s kind of like we can’t be that

00:31:14:16 - 00:31:19:01 feedback loop for each other as well as we perhaps can for other people.

00:31:19:03 - 00:31:23:02 Like we can’t be our own critics, She was able

00:31:23:04 - 00:31:25:24 this editor was able to look outside the box

00:31:25:24 - 00:31:30:13 and see what needed to happen or what was missing like that.

00:31:30:16 - 00:31:33:14 You know, as soon as she said it, we were like, You’re fucking right.

00:31:33:14 - 00:31:36:11 You’re absolutely bang on. And even.

00:31:36:11 - 00:31:37:05 We didn’t see that.

00:31:37:05 - 00:31:39:24 The thing is that she didn’t know who we were.

00:31:39:24 - 00:31:43:13 And I don’t mean that in a fucking cocky way, like, as if everyone knows who we are,

00:31:43:13 - 00:31:45:15 but like some of the other publishers were like,

00:31:45:15 - 00:31:45:24 Oh yeah, I’ve been

00:31:45:24 - 00:31:49:14 reading the white pube for years, and that obviously would have informed

00:31:49:18 - 00:31:53:12 their tastes and their, like ability to critique us as well.

00:31:53:14 - 00:31:57:10 So she didn’t know who we were, but her assistant editor,

00:31:57:12 - 00:32:00:09 when the proposal came through

00:32:00:09 - 00:32:05:07 to this publishing house and this imprint, the assistant editor

00:32:05:07 - 00:32:09:16 had actually been in a lecture we’d done at an art school.

00:32:09:18 - 00:32:15:08 So the assistant editor was able to flag it in a way that was like,

00:32:15:10 - 00:32:17:00 I do know who these are.

00:32:17:00 - 00:32:21:17 But having that mix of critique – it’s perfect for us.

00:32:21:18 - 00:32:23:08 Like it’s been the perfect mix

00:32:23:08 - 00:32:23:21 It’s been the perfect mix!

00:32:23:21 - 00:32:27:08 You say ‘not in a cocky way,’ Gabrielle, I’m going to be cocky with it

00:32:27:08 - 00:32:30:08 because until I went on a date with my fella,

00:32:30:08 - 00:32:35:06 I’d not been on a date since 2018 where the person –

00:32:35:08 - 00:32:38:03 the first date – where the other person hadn’t known who I was.

00:32:38:03 - 00:32:41:08 That’s so fucking creepy.

00:32:41:10 - 00:32:43:01 Isn’t it?

00:32:43:01 - 00:32:45:07 I don’t know what that says about my tastes, because it’s not like

00:32:45:07 - 00:32:48:13 every single man my age knows who we are.

00:32:48:15 - 00:32:52:08 But that speaks more to my choice.

00:32:52:10 - 00:32:54:15 So we’re going to.

00:32:54:15 - 00:32:55:12 Try to speed up a bit

00:32:55:12 - 00:32:59:07 because Zarina’s got to do some teaching at a university after this call. So.

00:32:59:12 - 00:33:02:03 oh my God, I’ve just remembered the plot twist.

00:33:02:03 - 00:33:03:15 Okay,

00:33:03:17 - 00:33:05:13 go back, rewind.

00:33:05:13 - 00:33:08:18 The conversation was just going so well that without

00:33:08:18 - 00:33:10:05 even fucking consulting Zarina.

00:33:10:05 - 00:33:15:09 I just went: I’ve had an idea for a second book and I just started

00:33:15:09 - 00:33:18:20 talking about this other book idea I was sort of having on the spot

00:33:18:22 - 00:33:22:07 and in the end we found out

00:33:22:07 - 00:33:26:03 that this is something that publishers like.

00:33:26:05 - 00:33:28:11 Huh?? Our agent said

00:33:28:11 - 00:33:29:16 Because it’s like a BOGOF deal, right?

00:33:29:16 - 00:33:33:00 It’s a buy one get one free, kind of.

00:33:33:02 - 00:33:36:04 But our agent was like, Okay, I think you need to change the book

00:33:36:04 - 00:33:40:04 proposal, like right now to say two books, I think you were actually proposing two

00:33:40:05 - 00:33:42:15 different books. So just add that one at the end.

00:33:42:15 - 00:33:45:20 This second book proposal, even though you haven’t written any

00:33:45:22 - 00:33:48:06 of the sample chapters.

00:33:48:06 - 00:33:51:03 Just add it on as a little p.s.

00:33:51:03 - 00:33:54:05 p.s. I’ve had another idea for a book

00:33:54:07 - 00:33:56:07 because in publishing

00:33:56:07 - 00:34:02:02 they like to see the big investment as like a long term project with someone,

00:34:02:08 - 00:34:05:17 you know, if they’re putting all this time and money into a writer,

00:34:05:19 - 00:34:09:00 it’d be good to, like, carry on developing that writer’s work

00:34:09:04 - 00:34:13:09 and to carry on like also reaping the benefits of that development,

00:34:13:11 - 00:34:15:12 which I have seen also in arts funding.

00:34:15:12 - 00:34:20:07 Like if you’ve had one or two art council applications accepted,

00:34:20:07 - 00:34:21:05 you’re more likely

00:34:21:05 - 00:34:25:09 to just carry on getting them forever because the Arts Council want to

00:34:25:11 - 00:34:28:20 want to like, yeah, keep on with you rather than invest

00:34:28:20 - 00:34:32:15 in lots of people a singular time, which is a little bit shady.

00:34:32:15 - 00:34:35:15 But I mean that’s the reality of it isn’t.

00:34:35:18 - 00:34:38:01 No, but it kind of

00:34:38:03 - 00:34:39:04 less for the Arts Council.

00:34:39:04 - 00:34:41:19 I think there should be enough money to go around for everyone.

00:34:41:19 - 00:34:46:03 But with a publisher it makes sense because your debut

00:34:46:04 - 00:34:49:04 publishing moment, people don’t know who you are.

00:34:49:08 - 00:34:50:18 They might never have heard of you.

00:34:50:18 - 00:34:53:18 They’re just walking into Waterstones and taking a chance, taking a gamble.

00:34:53:21 - 00:34:56:22 But the second time around, – if the first time

00:34:57:02 - 00:34:59:24 you did a good job, you got a fanbase,

00:34:59:24 - 00:35:04:08 you’ve got an audience ready and waiting, that second book might be a hit.

00:35:04:11 - 00:35:05:24 It’s more likely to be a hit.

00:35:05:24 - 00:35:09:10 It might be like third album weirdness, I don’t know.

00:35:09:12 - 00:35:12:08 But like I think

00:35:12:08 - 00:35:16:04 breaking the seal on that first book probably feels like more of a risk.

00:35:16:09 - 00:35:18:09 So when you’re sending the proposal out to them,

00:35:18:09 - 00:35:21:13 they come back to you was like an enthusiastic yes.

00:35:21:15 - 00:35:21:24 my God.

00:35:21:24 - 00:35:24:08 It’s yeah, love in the vibes. Here’s our offer.

00:35:24:08 - 00:35:28:08 And it’s a smaller number, but you meet them, you have a chat,

00:35:28:11 - 00:35:33:00 you get to know each other’s vibe, and then your agent – our agent

00:35:33:00 - 00:35:37:00 Milly went back to all four of the people that put in an offer to us

00:35:37:00 - 00:35:41:04 and was kind of like, How high can you go? show me your chequebook?

00:35:41:06 - 00:35:42:15 Show me your –

00:35:42:15 - 00:35:46:14 What have you got in there? What have you got in the bank? What’s going on?

00:35:46:14 - 00:35:49:20 upped the ante a bit, trying to like, not play them off against each other.

00:35:49:20 - 00:35:53:12 But you got to kind of, you know, put the fear of God in them and

00:35:53:14 - 00:35:56:08 and they come back to you with their real offer,

00:35:56:08 - 00:35:59:18 which we can’t say, but we may say.

00:35:59:20 - 00:36:04:07 We will say we’ll do another episode about, about the like financials

00:36:04:09 - 00:36:08:05 and also just like just to be a little sneak on us.

00:36:08:07 - 00:36:10:11 We have been publishing our accounts

00:36:10:11 - 00:36:14:01 for the past seven years or whatever it’s been.

00:36:14:03 - 00:36:16:15 So if you actually just want to go on the White Pube and look at all

00:36:16:15 - 00:36:20:05 our accounts and have a look at some of the numbers, you can figure out

00:36:20:05 - 00:36:27:03 not only how much we’ve got, but also probably who the money came from.

00:36:27:05 - 00:36:29:24 If you’re a detective, you can get all these answers.

00:36:29:24 - 00:36:33:12 You can’t find out where it’s come from because I do the accounts.

00:36:33:12 - 00:36:36:05 It’s Milly who pays it to us.

00:36:36:05 - 00:36:39:01 it just comes from the agency. Okay, True.

00:36:39:01 - 00:36:40:08 I’m sorry. Maybe it’s worth us

00:36:40:08 - 00:36:41:20 Explaining that structure as well.

00:36:41:20 - 00:36:45:10 So, like, they we don’t actually receive the money from the publisher.

00:36:45:12 - 00:36:49:23 We receive money from Milly who takes a percentage

00:36:49:23 - 00:36:54:01 cut for the work that she does, which is hard work, she’s earned this money.

00:36:54:05 - 00:36:57:18 The other bit that we didn’t mention is going through all the contracts

00:36:57:20 - 00:37:00:12 that specify like, yeah, what –

00:37:00:12 - 00:37:04:02 there’s a clause in the contract that has to specify what would happen

00:37:04:02 - 00:37:05:18 if one of us died

00:37:05:18 - 00:37:08:03 and what would happen to the book and the money and all the rest of it.

00:37:08:03 - 00:37:11:08 And like it goes into detail.

00:37:11:10 - 00:37:14:22 If one of us dies – let’s just go on a fucking tangent briefly and quickly.

00:37:15:00 - 00:37:18:19 If one of us dies and say there’s like notes,

00:37:18:21 - 00:37:21:12 the publisher has to decide

00:37:21:12 - 00:37:25:08 whether there are enough notes to go off to finish the book.

00:37:25:13 - 00:37:27:23 If we both die,

00:37:28:00 - 00:37:29:06 those notes

00:37:29:06 - 00:37:32:06 would be given to someone who writes like us

00:37:32:08 - 00:37:35:10 and they would try to finish the book for us.

00:37:35:10 - 00:37:37:11 And this has happened apparently, like quite a few times.

00:37:37:11 - 00:37:40:11 And there are notable points in book history, but like.

00:37:40:17 - 00:37:42:18 Who would that be?

00:37:42:18 - 00:37:45:07 Writers die all the time.

00:37:45:07 - 00:37:47:17 AI would finish the book.

00:37:47:17 - 00:37:48:17 I was listening –

00:37:48:17 - 00:37:52:12 I was listening to a podcast – I hate that. ‘By The White Pube and ChatGPT’

00:37:52:14 - 00:37:55:08

00:37:55:08 - 00:37:57:03

00:37:57:03 - 00:37:59:16 I was listening to a podcast about this. David Foster Wallace.

00:37:59:16 - 00:38:02:16 His last book that he ever published

00:38:02:16 - 00:38:06:10 was like half written by the time he died,

00:38:06:12 - 00:38:11:09 and he has an editor that he works with loads.

00:38:11:11 - 00:38:15:01 He was able to like go through his notes and his drafts

00:38:15:03 - 00:38:18:05 and figure out a version of it that felt like him.

00:38:18:10 - 00:38:20:04 They didn’t always agree.

00:38:20:04 - 00:38:22:06 That’s so rough isn’t it.

00:38:22:06 - 00:38:24:04 But you have to have those things in contracts.

00:38:24:04 - 00:38:29:04 I think it’s the Pale King. Anyway, that happened, I remember I’ve got the email

00:38:29:04 - 00:38:32:01 through with the final offer and I was like, my God.

00:38:32:01 - 00:38:34:04 And again we’ll talk about money in the future.

00:38:34:04 - 00:38:35:23 It wasn’t enough for us to quit our jobs

00:38:35:23 - 00:38:39:23 and just write a book like we have had to work full time all year.

00:38:40:00 - 00:38:42:24 And this essentially equates to like a minimum wage

00:38:42:24 - 00:38:46:22 part time job and that we’ve both had for the past year to write the book.

00:38:46:22 - 00:38:51:14 The publishers pay an advance for nonfiction, so they pay you a lump

00:38:51:14 - 00:38:55:10 sum up front. It is a figure that comes

00:38:55:10 - 00:39:00:01 out of the set, like – it’s not like they pay that money for you to keep.

00:39:00:03 - 00:39:05:06 It’s kind of like a loan, an advance, and they give you that money

00:39:05:08 - 00:39:07:02 that you take away

00:39:07:02 - 00:39:10:04 to write a book, but you have to kind of earn it off through sales.

00:39:10:04 - 00:39:14:01 And only once that money has been earned back, do you start earning royalties.

00:39:14:05 - 00:39:16:04 And it’s kind of like that’s the whole complicated process.

00:39:16:04 - 00:39:20:18 But this advance was paid to us based on two books, right?

00:39:20:18 - 00:39:25:04 So it’s a two book deal, so it’s split in two

00:39:25:06 - 00:39:25:21 already.

00:39:25:21 - 00:39:31:06 Like the advance that we get now for this one book is like

00:39:31:08 - 00:39:33:02 half already between two people.

00:39:33:02 - 00:39:34:09 So that’s a quarter.

00:39:34:09 - 00:39:39:15 So like I’m going to take those to away – two people, that’s a quarter each.

00:39:39:17 - 00:39:43:07 And then also part of that

00:39:43:07 - 00:39:46:07 first one book sum between two people is paid

00:39:46:11 - 00:39:52:09 on signing on delivery of the manuscript and then on publishing

00:39:52:11 - 00:39:55:07 a hardback and publishing the paperback copy.

00:39:55:07 - 00:39:56:01 So it’s split

00:39:56:01 - 00:40:00:03 all these different like the big sum is split into loads of different sums.

00:40:00:05 - 00:40:01:07 So we’ve actually only

00:40:01:07 - 00:40:03:05 got a teeny tiny amount of it upfront

00:40:03:05 - 00:40:05:02 to actually write the book in the first place.

00:40:05:02 - 00:40:07:22 And that money is running out. It has caused us

00:40:07:22 - 00:40:09:06 great stress.

00:40:09:06 - 00:40:11:24 We are stressed about money

00:40:11:24 - 00:40:16:21 and maybe in a couple years we will listen back to this podcast

00:40:16:21 - 00:40:20:22 and how we will laugh on our bed of stacks of cash.

00:40:21:01 - 00:40:24:05 I don’t think so.

00:40:24:05 - 00:40:25:15

00:40:25:15 - 00:40:27:03 I don’t know if we will but

00:40:27:03 - 00:40:27:21 Maybe we will.

00:40:27:21 - 00:40:28:08

00:40:28:08 - 00:40:31:07 I’m glad you brought money up back up because I think like, when –

00:40:31:07 - 00:40:34:02 if I was listening to like any sort of content

00:40:34:02 - 00:40:37:24 creator on the Internet who has like, you know, tens of thousands of followers,

00:40:38:01 - 00:40:40:19 like if I was listening to them talk about getting an advance, I’d be like,

00:40:40:19 - 00:40:42:10 my God, that person’s a millionaire.

00:40:42:10 - 00:40:44:22 my God, they’re going to buy a Lamborghini.

00:40:44:22 - 00:40:49:03 But like for us, it really has not been that much money.

00:40:49:03 - 00:40:51:24 And, you know, in a sense, like maybe the advance

00:40:51:24 - 00:40:55:22 not being that high is a good thing because we’ll earn the money

00:40:55:22 - 00:40:59:11 back soon enough that we’ll start to get paid royalties

00:40:59:13 - 00:41:02:12 and but that depends on how well the book sells.

00:41:02:12 - 00:41:06:13 So we’ll seeeee.

00:41:06:15 - 00:41:08:04 that fear

00:41:08:04 - 00:41:10:01 that fear that we’ve had in us like, shit,

00:41:10:01 - 00:41:14:02 we actually like really need to write the best thing we’ve ever written because

00:41:14:04 - 00:41:17:19 this is going to go out to a lot of people, but also we are critics.

00:41:17:19 - 00:41:22:21 So you know, people are going to be really harsh on

00:41:22:23 - 00:41:26:03 our outcomes because we are critics

00:41:26:03 - 00:41:29:11 and we’ve said a lot of things about a lot of people over the years.

00:41:29:13 - 00:41:33:19 And this is like a multiple point fear because it’s like,

00:41:33:19 - 00:41:38:07 yeah, money, it needs to be as good as possible because it’s going out to people, loads of people.

00:41:38:07 - 00:41:39:11 It’s going to be in Waterstones.

00:41:39:11 - 00:41:43:17 We’re critics, we chat so much smack that like

00:41:43:20 - 00:41:50:06 we gotta fucking have it, you know, we gotta have it on us

00:41:50:08 - 00:41:53:07 we’ve gotta pull it out the bag. But then it’s also the money

00:41:53:07 - 00:41:54:12 The other money thing is like

00:41:54:12 - 00:41:58:22 if this book doesn’t sell well, we’ll never get a book deal again.

00:41:58:24 - 00:42:00:00 Like.

00:42:00:00 - 00:42:02:13 Because, because if you, if you think about it

00:42:02:13 - 00:42:06:17 like when we were talking about publishers and investments like

00:42:06:19 - 00:42:09:20 say we write this and we write the second book,

00:42:10:01 - 00:42:12:20 when it comes to that, we really want to have a third book

00:42:12:20 - 00:42:16:23 like we’ve had an idea that instance

00:42:16:23 - 00:42:19:14 and those publishers say it’s the same publishers, say it’s a different one.

00:42:19:14 - 00:42:22:14 They’ll be like, okay, well, show us the figures for the first two books,

00:42:22:20 - 00:42:26:05 and if those figures are bad, why would they ever give us the money?

00:42:26:07 - 00:42:29:23 Like it’s a big fear,

00:42:30:00 - 00:42:33:12 but also the artistic fear.

00:42:33:12 - 00:42:33:24 Like, okay,

00:42:33:24 - 00:42:37:05 we’ve got this time to try and produce the best thing we’ve ever produced.

00:42:37:10 - 00:42:41:13 So like, let’s give it our all kind of thing that has also been in us.

00:42:41:13 - 00:42:45:03 And I actually, like we’ve been writing for the past,

00:42:45:09 - 00:42:49:04 maybe we started in September 2022 and it’s just over.

00:42:49:04 - 00:42:53:02 It’s just gone 12 months, 13 months, and

00:42:53:04 - 00:42:55:00 I’m really happy with what we’ve done.

00:42:55:00 - 00:43:00:15 The editorial process has, like you know, we had this kind of loose fun idea

00:43:00:15 - 00:43:04:14 in the book proposal, but the editors we’ve worked with

00:43:04:14 - 00:43:10:08 have really helped us like sharpen of writing style, and they’ve helped us

00:43:10:08 - 00:43:13:23 like reflect politically on what we’re doing and they’ve helped us

00:43:14:01 - 00:43:18:15 think about how a big text is structured because again,

00:43:18:15 - 00:43:22:12 if you’re aware of the white pube stuff that we’ve been doing for eight years,

00:43:22:14 - 00:43:26:24 the longest texts we’ve written tend to come out like 6000 words.

00:43:27:01 - 00:43:31:12 This book is 103,000 words.

00:43:31:12 - 00:43:34:24 So like we’ve really had to stretch

00:43:35:01 - 00:43:39:13 our conception of what it means to write when we’re so used to writing these

00:43:39:13 - 00:43:42:12 like kind of little parcels that are wrapped up very neatly

00:43:42:12 - 00:43:45:16 with a beginning and a middle and an end and like

00:43:45:18 - 00:43:48:07 that’s just gone.

00:43:48:07 - 00:43:51:03 And it’s been really difficult to do.

00:43:51:03 - 00:43:55:09 But I think having said that, I have learned already loads.

00:43:55:11 - 00:43:58:14 I’m really proud of the work that we have produced this far

00:43:58:14 - 00:44:03:22 even if it’s not finished, even if the work isn’t done, we have done

00:44:03:24 - 00:44:07:00 we’ve like not only come really far and learned loads,

00:44:07:00 - 00:44:11:10 but like it’s good, like I think it’s good as it is,

00:44:11:14 - 00:44:15:06 it can be better but like it’s not done but like we’ve got the next 6 weeks.

00:44:15:09 - 00:44:18:14 Yeah.

00:44:18:16 - 00:44:22:03 So like it’s still TBC, but the work we’ve done so far,

00:44:22:03 - 00:44:25:17 I’m really proud of like not only because

00:44:25:19 - 00:44:29:07 it’s new and it’s like this whole –

00:44:29:07 - 00:44:32:23 like if we thought the proposal was like a new shared language between us,

00:44:33:00 - 00:44:36:15 this is like a, this is something else.

00:44:36:17 - 00:44:37:04 We’ve done it.

00:44:37:04 - 00:44:39:12 It’s not just like a new register.

00:44:39:12 - 00:44:43:02 It’s like a new form for us entirely,

00:44:43:04 - 00:44:47:18 and maybe even for criticism as a discipline.

00:44:47:20 - 00:44:48:24 I hope so. But like.

00:44:48:24 - 00:44:51:04 You’ll have to chat to us next year.

00:44:51:04 - 00:44:55:15 To this, you know, amalgam, singular reader who’s listening.

00:44:55:16 - 00:45:01:00 This is to the one person who listens to the podcast

00:45:01:02 - 00:45:02:12 if you’ve read

00:45:02:12 - 00:45:07:04 the texts that have been coming out over the past few months

00:45:07:06 - 00:45:09:09 and the kind of fictional slant

00:45:09:09 - 00:45:14:24 to some of them like Pomodoro and come dine with me and the Bingo

00:45:14:24 - 00:45:20:12 Review, and like even Maggot Man the other day, like we are definitely

00:45:20:14 - 00:45:25:09 seeing the effect of having written a book on our Sunday texts.

00:45:25:11 - 00:45:28:02 And I love the change.

00:45:28:02 - 00:45:28:18 I love it.

00:45:28:18 - 00:45:31:23 I love it’s really like made me so excited to write.

00:45:31:23 - 00:45:33:18 I think there was a moment when I was starting to feel like

00:45:33:18 - 00:45:38:10 our texts were a bit stagnant slightly, or I wasn’t like I was creatively fulfilled.

00:45:38:10 - 00:45:40:20 And now that is like completely exploded.

00:45:40:20 - 00:45:43:02 And I’m like, Yeah, bang into it.

00:45:43:02 - 00:45:45:00 I think it goes back to that thing you were saying.

00:45:45:00 - 00:45:46:22 You just need to open the doors,

00:45:46:22 - 00:45:50:19 open the windows and get some developmental juice in.

00:45:50:24 - 00:45:54:00 Or just be left alone in your shed. either way, whatever,

00:45:54:00 - 00:45:57:24 presses you to develop the thing that you like.

00:45:58:01 - 00:45:59:11 We hit a plateau.

00:45:59:11 - 00:46:03:04 And now we’ve broken that plateau, Now

00:46:03:06 - 00:46:06:03 we’re stressed but satisfied.

00:46:06:03 - 00:46:06:15 That’s it.

00:46:06:15 - 00:46:07:19 I’m creatively fulfilled.

00:46:07:19 - 00:46:10:22 I’m like, slightly skint and I’m tired.

00:46:10:22 - 00:46:13:03 It’s been really difficult to do through fatigue

00:46:13:03 - 00:46:18:05 and it’s been difficult like, yeah, in terms of the length of the whole thing.

00:46:18:07 - 00:46:20:10 And it’s been difficult to balance

00:46:20:10 - 00:46:25:08 writing for the website that we run of our own accord

00:46:25:10 - 00:46:28:07 on top of writing a book, which is why

00:46:28:07 - 00:46:31:05 we disappeared for a few months over the summer because

00:46:31:05 - 00:46:35:00 essentially we’d written the full book and then our editors were like, We love it.

00:46:35:05 - 00:46:36:11 You’ve done all the writing,

00:46:36:11 - 00:46:40:08 but what would you think about changing the order of it a little bit?

00:46:40:10 - 00:46:45:19 And essentially that sounded like an easy, easy fix at the time.

00:46:45:19 - 00:46:47:22 In the meeting, I was like, yeah, I totally agree.

00:46:47:22 - 00:46:50:02 But yeah, that’ll take us like a week.

00:46:50:02 - 00:46:51:13 I’ll just copy and paste some things around.

00:46:51:13 - 00:46:56:12 But we realized that it was like rewriting an entire book in a different tense

00:46:56:14 - 00:46:59:19 and changing the continuity and changing like the rhythm

00:46:59:19 - 00:47:02:19 in order to like, bump up the reader experience.

00:47:02:19 - 00:47:06:13 So I disappeared for two months to change

00:47:06:13 - 00:47:09:13 the and it was like, very much worth it.

00:47:09:16 - 00:47:13:01 Yesterday we had a follow up meeting with our editors

00:47:13:01 - 00:47:15:03 after they read that version of the book,

00:47:15:03 - 00:47:17:11 and there are a few more changes we need to make.

00:47:17:11 - 00:47:22:21 And we’ve essentially got roughly the next 4 to 6 weeks to make those changes

00:47:22:23 - 00:47:25:11 and end up with a final file.

00:47:25:11 - 00:47:30:10 And then we’re aiming for an October 2024 publication date,

00:47:30:10 - 00:47:34:12 because once books are done, it takes like nine months to

00:47:34:14 - 00:47:37:14 to actually make them into like a printed book on a shelf.

00:47:37:17 - 00:47:39:03 You have to go through like

00:47:39:03 - 00:47:43:05 copy editing, line editing, marketing plans, printing, all that crap.

00:47:43:05 - 00:47:47:01 It’s the production side of things rather than the editorial

00:47:47:01 - 00:47:49:10 side of things. So

00:47:49:12 - 00:47:52:14 we’ve, we’ve explained ourselves, that’s where the fuck been.

00:47:52:19 - 00:47:55:06 We were slightly going to dip out for like

00:47:55:06 - 00:47:59:23 2 to 3 or four weeks, depending on how long it takes.

00:48:00:03 - 00:48:03:03 Energy wise, and you know

00:48:03:05 - 00:48:07:09 all that to absorb the critique from the latest round of edits

00:48:07:11 - 00:48:09:12 and really fucking

00:48:09:12 - 00:48:12:18 just wrap this up because I think we’re both itching

00:48:12:22 - 00:48:15:22 to not only like have it done and feel settled,

00:48:15:23 - 00:48:19:06 but we want to get back to writing Sunday texts every –

00:48:19:08 - 00:48:21:00 every single week and just like –

00:48:21:00 - 00:48:27:17 something just came out my mouth like a fucking feeling.

00:48:27:19 - 00:48:29:07 I think is worth saying.

00:48:29:07 - 00:48:32:07 I don’t know about you, but this is the longest I’ve worked on

00:48:32:07 - 00:48:33:00 anything.

00:48:33:00 - 00:48:35:16 Exactly. It’s hard!

00:48:35:16 - 00:48:37:10 One thing, one singular thing.

00:48:37:10 - 00:48:40:06 Even at university, like.

00:48:40:06 - 00:48:41:08 Way faster turnover.

00:48:41:08 - 00:48:46:12 Even our dissertation. Because it’s been longer than a year.

00:48:46:14 - 00:48:50:12 Gabrielle, Like this time last November, we’d been working on it for

00:48:50:14 - 00:48:51:09 a good couple months.

00:48:51:09 - 00:48:53:06 This is like a year and a half.

00:48:53:06 - 00:48:55:22 But from the book proposal, thats even more time

00:48:55:22 - 00:48:59:16 and from having the meetings – this has gone on for a long time.

00:48:59:16 - 00:49:02:12 But I think like it being in the oven for a long time is a good thing.

00:49:02:12 - 00:49:05:18 And like, yeah, yeah, it’s exciting.

00:49:05:18 - 00:49:09:11 We’re so close to being able to talk about things,

00:49:09:13 - 00:49:14:10 but like we almost can’t because we want to change the title of the book.

00:49:14:10 - 00:49:18:19 So we need to decide on the new title before we can even say anything.

00:49:18:21 - 00:49:19:19 Yeah, there are still

00:49:19:19 - 00:49:22:17 couple thing TBC, like I think as well.

00:49:22:17 - 00:49:25:06 It’s kind of it’s taken so long.

00:49:25:06 - 00:49:30:22 It also feels weird to talk about I’m used to being like, like I can’t.

00:49:30:24 - 00:49:33:18 Yeah, it’s, it’s been like such a secret.

00:49:33:18 - 00:49:36:04 Like we’re the type of people.

00:49:36:04 - 00:49:39:12 Who like interview writers to help them publicize

00:49:39:12 - 00:49:43:13 their books like it is so bizarre that that at some point in the next year

00:49:43:13 - 00:49:45:21 is going to flip and we’re going to be like,

00:49:45:21 - 00:49:48:14 God, we have to be we have to market the book now.

00:49:48:14 - 00:49:49:16 We have to like, yeah,

00:49:49:16 - 00:49:53:09 all of that is, but we can talk about that in future episodes of the podcast.

00:49:53:09 - 00:49:56:12 Helloooo from the editing booth

00:49:56:15 - 00:49:59:24 I’ve just come in to sign off the episode because Zarina was in such a rush to leave

00:49:59:24 - 00:50:04:10 and we just like didn’t do it justice, I don’t think.

00:50:04:12 - 00:50:05:14 Thank you for listening.

00:50:05:14 - 00:50:11:01 But more than that, thank you for being one of our readers

00:50:11:02 - 00:50:16:00 Thank you for helping us be a writer by virtue of reading us.

00:50:16:02 - 00:50:18:07 I can’t stress enough that

00:50:18:07 - 00:50:21:14 these publishers would not have made an investment in our work

00:50:21:16 - 00:50:26:22 if we couldn’t justify such an investment with our readership numbers

00:50:26:24 - 00:50:30:19 so we could literally pull analytics from the websites, from Instagram,

00:50:30:19 - 00:50:34:23 Twitter, all the rest of it and say, Look, this is how many people are reading

00:50:34:23 - 00:50:38:19 our shitty little Sunday reviews just of their own accord.

00:50:38:21 - 00:50:40:16 And it’s quite big.

00:50:40:16 - 00:50:42:09 And over the years that has kind of

00:50:42:09 - 00:50:47:06 become like a 30,000 page views on the website every month.

00:50:47:07 - 00:50:50:17 And it’s like as nervous as I am that no one’s going to buy the book,

00:50:50:19 - 00:50:52:09 no one’s going to care.

00:50:52:09 - 00:50:55:22 I have to remind myself, like the people who listen to this podcast

00:50:55:22 - 00:50:59:06 and the people who read thewhitepube.com are real,

00:50:59:08 - 00:51:03:02 as are the patrons supporters who aren’t actually just one

00:51:03:04 - 00:51:06:17 like conglomerate amalgamation face or whatever

00:51:06:17 - 00:51:11:13 we were saying earlier in the episode, like, Yeah, thank you for being real,

00:51:11:15 - 00:51:15:21 thank you for supporting us and none of this would have happened without you.

00:51:15:21 - 00:51:20:05 So that reader support will be in the acknowledgments of the book.

00:51:20:08 - 00:51:25:03 So I just yeah, I’ll probably say it 500 more times, but thank you for

00:51:25:05 - 00:51:29:08 letting us do what we want to do in life, and I appreciate it.

00:51:29:10 - 00:51:33:14 If you want to also join the patron and you’ve not done it before

00:51:33:20 - 00:51:37:16 or do one time donations on PayPal and Ko-Fi,

00:51:37:16 - 00:51:41:08 then just go to the support page on our website

00:51:41:08 - 00:51:44:06 and I’ll link the stuff in the show notes if I remember.

00:51:44:06 - 00:51:45:19 But who knows?

00:51:45:19 - 00:51:49:14 If you donate or support via any of those methods,

00:51:49:14 - 00:51:52:10 then you get to join the Discord server, which is like

00:51:52:10 - 00:51:55:23 my favorite place on the internet and it’s a really nice creative community

00:51:56:04 - 00:51:59:11 where we organize crits and just have a nice little chat

00:51:59:13 - 00:52:02:23 If you’re not able to support financially because who the fuck is then

00:52:02:23 - 00:52:06:04 please consider just sharing some of the things that we’ve already done,

00:52:06:10 - 00:52:11:12 whether that’s a podcast episode or a text or a YouTube video like organic posts

00:52:11:12 - 00:52:14:21 of those things that maybe you’ve read and really appreciated

00:52:14:21 - 00:52:18:16 or enjoyed or even hated, or you want to add critique to yourself.

00:52:18:16 - 00:52:22:20 Like that is the most interesting part of like sharing this stuff online.

00:52:22:20 - 00:52:26:14 For me, it’s not the numbers, it’s the interaction and the comments

00:52:26:14 - 00:52:27:19 and the conversations,

00:52:27:19 - 00:52:31:18 which is actually why I love the discord so much, because we can like break it down

00:52:31:18 - 00:52:36:02 with people there so that I’ll say goodbye from Zarina.

00:52:36:04 - 00:52:41:11 I’ll say good bye from me and we will see you on the next episode of the podcast.

00:52:41:13 - 00:52:45:08 But we don’t know when that will be because we have to finish this book.

00:52:45:10 - 00:52:48:10 Goodbyeeeee

00:52:48:14 - 00:53:05:14